Cliffs with ZERO bolts.

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Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Sep 23, 2012 - 07:45am PT

But any group that raises up against bull-shit "ethics" and does what they want when they are the users has my praise.

Even when they're just "cranking the rad" ?
;)

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Sep 23, 2012 - 08:51am PT

The 'doing' is the thing!

There's tons of examples of the other, and yes I've been witness to that freedom of speech / broad definition of events. Often by members of that same team. that's a different game

What I was implying above was that some of those guys see their virtual game as "fighting against the bullshit" or however you put it. But in fact they have opted into a different pursuit altogether.

Just like we've gotten away from the ZERO bolt troll....

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Sep 23, 2012 - 09:38am PT

Joe. Lots of folks can not climb my routs but many can. Some are pure sport and many are mixed and some all gear. whatever.. Certainly not dumbed down for the masses.. Just watched one of my routs get it's 3rd ascent friday. It's a mixed 2 pitch climb that I drilled on lead 4 years ago. The guys who climbed it friday wrere the 3rd party other than myself and Isa to do the climb. They thought it was hard 10 easy 11? the leader took a gear fall on the 2nd pitch. Its at a busy roadside crag yet looks spicy enough it took 4 years to get a 3rd ascent.. This and the majority of bolted climbs (Rumny the exception) in the NE are not dumbed down for the masses..
Do you feel that El Cap was better off left unclimbed? Do you feel that all those spicy bolted spires in the black hills should have been left for 5.13 climbers to solo? Your fear of bolts is not rational, it is simply a quirky knee jerk reaction phobia thing. Perhaps if we had a decent health care system in this country you could get help on this issue;)

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Sep 23, 2012 - 10:58am PT

Zero is pretty absolute. Cliffs like Arch Rock, the Elephants Perch, and Chasm View Wall in the Black come near enough to suit any tradsters needs.

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Sep 23, 2012 - 12:33pm PT

Ben Lomond national park in Tasmania. Thousands of crack lines spread out over several miles without a single bolt. The proclamation has been that any bolt that is placed for any reason will be promptly removed.

God I love that place.
Arne

cfrac

Trad climber

Gardiner,NY

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2012 - 09:07pm PT

Some places lend themselfs to natural gear and some do not. I generaly get a bit miffed when some holyer than thou elitest traddie from an area with an abundance of natural gear puts the scorn on a bolted face climbing area that would have very few routs without bolts.

I asked the question to find out just how rare cliffs with no bolts are. It was not intended as a troll, nor as a judgement against placing bolts. I want to know just how unique Millbrook is. Now that a few people have weighed in as to what my ulterior motives are I'll give my biased view: In writing the history for an on-line guidebook to Millbrook I wanted to be able to include a paragraph about how this area is unique because it is the only major Gunks cliff without bolts. This got me thinking "Is it in the only major cliff in the U.S. without bolts?" I didn't know the answer so I posted the question in this forum because the readership is so wide. To those that answered, Thank you!

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Sep 23, 2012 - 09:32pm PT

If you are writeing a book you might want to a bit more reserch than the taco stand...

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Sep 23, 2012 - 09:40pm PT

When does a creek become a river, a hill a mountain, a pond a lake...then again, when does a minor cliff become a major cliff?

cfrac

Trad climber

Gardiner,NY

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2012 - 09:44pm PT

If you are writeing a book you might want to a bit more reserch than the taco stand...

I am, and it's not a book, it's a website.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Sep 23, 2012 - 09:49pm PT

Gardiner is near the Gunks so a certain bias is evident. Don't get me wrong, I love the Gunks but the fact that one cliff there is completely devoid of votes is interesting but only in a minor way. Then again, when does minor become major?

MisterE

Social climber

Sep 23, 2012 - 09:57pm PT

I am, and it's not a book, it's a website

www.traddaddieslaststand.com?

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Sep 23, 2012 - 10:07pm PT

I checked the 1995 guidebook to the "Traprock" area of Connecticut, as it's known as a "low bolt" area. I didn't find a crag with 100+ routes and no bolts. 105 crags are covered in the guidebook.
There are several with 50+ routes and no bolts, though.
The closest one was Grond Cliff with 92 routes and no bolts.
Also "close" but I found a bolt at each:

Castle Crag - 103 routes

Amphitheater - 95 routes
The Main Cliff at Ragged had 152 routes in 1997, and no bolts or fixed pins, but it doesn't really count because it did have a few bolts for several years prior.

Some of the factors that help keep the bolt count low:

you can walk off almost all the climbs

lots of tree on top, and people willing to bring an extra static rope for anchoring when the trees are further back

many cracks

short crags, so it's easy to set up topropes on faces with no clean gear

local activist who enjoys the challenge of placing gear; was willing to lead some climbs on hooks and fine with toproping instead of bolting on others
There is also a ban on placing new bolts at the Ragged Main Cliff as part of the conservation easement when the Ragged Mountain Foundation was formed. (I may have the details slightly wrong). This helps prevent people from installing convenience anchors at the tops of existing routes, although of course people have been climbing there since the 1930s and haven't needed them....

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Sep 23, 2012 - 10:08pm PT

I would love to find a cliff in VT or NH reasonably close to my house that had gobbs of natural gear protected lines just waiting for FA's... Untill then it's gonna be Drill baby Drill ;)

Todd Eastman

climber

Bellingham, WA

Sep 23, 2012 - 10:08pm PT

Chris, good luck with your project.

Todd

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Sep 23, 2012 - 10:15pm PT

Clint The principle reason CT has no bolts was a single psyco who chopped all of them for many years before being banned from many of the cliffs.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Sep 23, 2012 - 10:19pm PT

That same psycho is claiming Wilt Chamberlain numbers in climbs done lifetime and the number of ascents of a single route. Actually they would be Wilt Chamberlain numbers if you moved the decimal point one place to the left.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Sep 23, 2012 - 11:02pm PT

Not truly psycho, rational and dedicated is a more accurate description I'd say.
Probably there were a lot more "bolts" that weren't placed in the first place because people knew they wouldn't last, than the number of bolts chopped in CT. Most of the chopping took place outside CT.

But those other factors also influence motivation to bolt - it makes CT traprock similar to UK gritstone in several ways. If you can walk off, you don't need a rappel anchor, etc. ...

If you have a mix of climbers from different places doing first ascents at a crag on public land, chances are that some of them will place a couple of bolts unless there's a well known tradition. Even old Fred Beckey was known for placing a single bolt on some of his long routes, and Fred got around!

Lover's Leap (California) was thought of as a bolt-free crag at one time (see Advanced Rockcraft, early 70s) and is similar to the Gunks in its horizontal features. It may have had 100+ routes before its first bolt. But it didn't stay at zero bolts.