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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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May as well post a couple more pics while waiting for the heater to drain...
Here's the other end of the basement. The amount of water that comes in is evident by the amount of erosion... What a mess. Looks like it actually had a block wall at one time... Never noticed that.
Here's a section under the livingroom. Looks like someone crawled under there at some point, as there's a cinder block under the one joist. As for the plants, I have no idea. Good news is that the joists are up off the dirt, so hopefully little repair needed here.
The section under the dining room is a disaster, and adjoins the section under the kitchen. Water comes in from the left side of the photo, joists are touching the dirt, joists installed the wrong way.... Ugh.
Clearly I have a lot of digging to do, and thankfully there's a cellar entrance. Looking over CraigsList last night it turns out there's a couple farmers in the area looking to get rid of old, conveyor-based grain elevators for under $500, and I'm giving serious thought to getting one and dropping the end in the basement and parking the truck at the other end. Dumping buckets into the machine would be much nicer than carrying them up the steep and narrow stairs, especially since my head doesn't clear the floor joists by a good margin.
Ugh. What a mess.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Sep 11, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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Just a thought (not a pleasant one) how about coming at this from INSIDE the house? remove some floor boards, replace/repair joists and subfloor. Pour concrete from above... might be the "more pleasant" fix...
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Sep 11, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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Is pex rated for heating pipes?
If so, that may be an easy DIY solution.
As far as the subfloor goes, I'd consider adding a wood hardener to the subfloor. From there, scab a piece of PT ply underneath and continue with the sistering of the rim joist and post on concrete as suggested before.
The big question is what are you going to do to address water issues once you've put the bandaid on the floor system?
Many ways to skin this cat...
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 11, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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Looks familiar. I'll bet the subfloor, where it butts into the wall, has no solid attachment and kinda floats, cantilevered out from the remaining joists. if so, you need to not only support the floor but hold it solid, too. here's a solution:
1. Hack away at the rotten joist until you get back to solid wood.
2. That end of the joist is now in space. What you want to to do is support it. But you also want to try to attach the joist solidly to the new support, so the joist and the floor cannot move either up or down.
3. Form and pour a concrete pad, (6-8-inches thick, and whatever you can get out of one 80-pound bag). This will be a pain. Probably requiring small buckets, much swearing. A child's sled and rope works great to drag batches of concrete across a tight crawlspace. Use the 5000 psi stuff, much better product and fast set time. Install a couple J-bolts in the concrete, with a view to bolting down a short piece of treated 2x4 lumber on top of the concrete pad. Use a plumb bob to mark the wet concrete to line up where the post needs to be, then install the bolts an inch or two to either side of this.
4. Wait a week for the concrete to set real hard. Bolt down the short chunk of 2x4 on top. Install a post on top of this 2x4, tight under the joist. Shim if needed. Now, add a second 2x4 (or a small piece of 3/4 plywood), vertical, to span between the joist and the 2x4 attached to the concrete. Use gold deck screws, pre-drilled, to hold it all together. Maybe PL Premium, too. So, now you have solid support under the joist (and floor). Plus the weight of the lumber and concrete are holding the floor down so it won't creak or move at all.
5. The 2 or 3 feet where the rotten joist was removed should be no big deal, structurally. These old houses kinda stay up out of habit. if there's a saggy or creaky spot, the pipe is in the way for anything clever. Plus it would be nice to dismantle this easily to access said pipe if needed. Cobble some kind of lumber scraps to create a post deal much like what you already have in the pics.
EDIT: Looks like you added more pics of the rest of the basement/crawlspace. It appears water might be coming in from outside, bringing dirt and plant seeds. Removing some of the dirt is a good idea. A long term solution is to see that outside you have drainage away from the building. Install gutters, if the house does not have them.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Sep 11, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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I would frame up critical sections for structural areas and pull one or two of the flooring boards or drill 3” hole into top corner flooring and secondary floor to expose area. Then place a flowable fill mix or add a polycarboxylate ether based superplasticizers (PCEs) [new generation]. With a relatively low dosage (0.15–0.3% by cement weight) they allow a water reduction up to 40%, due to their chemical structure which enables good particle dispersion. Depending on the amount of cement using the 0.15% with sand will give 2500 psi – 3000 psi for structural.
Rent a mixer for the day, pour into the hole using a cup chute till the mix comes to the top of the drill hole or cut board. Make sure house is level or areas that need it. Just need to make sure furnace piping or others are replaced with new piping or jacketed so you can replace later or to access them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsLKJbMNkUE
Gives you the idea but they use it to also for your application.
Grace is another company that has a good one.
Theirs is slow since they say they are using the water in the sand, you can make it so it looks like soup by adding water but adding too much will bring down your strengths. Just some mechanical adjustments.
Crane Flat guys used a fill [road] on their new pipe, I said as I drove by nice to see someone has their act together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38gamAlxt0&feature=related
Better system or same idea
SCC is a highly flowable, non-segregating concrete that spreads into place, and fills formwork without any mechanical consolidation. SCC is specified for both horizontal and vertical applications. It can be used for slabs, elevated decks, ultrathin floors (typically used in condo projects), radiant flooring, and repair toppings/overlays. In vertical applications, SCC is used for walls, new columns and repairs to columns and bridge decks.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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Very good points, Bruce. I can say with 100% certainty that there is no issue with the wall studs in the exterior walls, as there quite simply aren't any. It's solid stone all the way up, with the exterior side stucco'd and the interior plaster direct on the stone. As I mentioned before, the floor joists were simply set into alcoves built into the stone, and the floors are essentially free floating. And from what I've seen of the construction of the interior walls, they're not load bearing, as the upper floor was done the same way. And if that sounds strange, the upper floor ceiling is actually a false ceiling 3 feet below the original ceiling, and the entire area there is open except for the chimney passing through. Really strange how they built this house... One theory I have is that they started construction in 1829 (the date we were originally given for the house), built the exterior and roof, and they didn't finish the interior until 1859 (which is the date on the capstone we found set into the front wall and hidden below the 1930's vintage porch roof). Sounds crazy it would happen like this, but possible given that it was intentionally built as the area's first public school and at the time the area was a couple hour horse ride from Philly (~25 miles or so) and pretty sparsely populated.
Got more to say, but gotta start closing up here and head home to make dinner. It was pickup day at the CSA, so i've got bags and bags of fresh organic veggies... :-)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 11, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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I grew up in a house from 1780s, my parents then "retired" to my grandparents house started in the 1760s. I recently bought a house built in 2002.
I'd say stick with the Bottle Jacks.
I'd give serious consideration to the idea of coming at it from the top.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
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Fet, if you only knew how much beer I've gone through working on this at least half time the past year or so... Staggering amounts. Even more so when I can rope friends into helping. Case in point- as bad as the basement looks now, it's not even in the same ballpark as it was when we got it. We literally had to shovel 16"+ of rotting wood, mold and lord knows what else out to even *see* there was a concrete floor to the basement. If I can find a pic I'll post it. Short version- the current hot water boiler went in ~1970's, judging by the servicing notes scrawled on the side. No idea if it was the first hot water oil burner in there, but the original hot air gravity octopus was still in place and hooked up (and was made in 1859, according to the date cast into it). Judging from the detritus we dug through, that 1850's octopus was used until at least the 1960's as all the much was simply firewood for it that was left to rot in the wet basement once the oil burner went in. There may even have been some overlap between the oil burner and octopus, as the cellar entrance was completely filled with rotting firewood.
As I said, I have a picture somewhere and it's unbelievable how much the previous owners left the place deteriorate. Fortunately the bones are still good, hence us being willing to attempt restoring it (admittedly we got it for a song and once fixed up a bit will sell for more than double we bought it for).
-a.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 11, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
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Sell it and move, then go climbing.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sep 11, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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From my time rehabing old houses:
Unless rehabing old houses is what you like to spend your dollars and majority of time doing, don't get started. It never ends with old houses. Never.
A lot of people like dealing with that constant sh#t. Contractors love that sh#t. All of them.
The steel angle iron and some fixed screw/floor jacks (not bottle jacks) will do the trick here if safety is your concern.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
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Hell yes, JLP. This is the second climbing season I've missed to my Great White Whale, and damned if I miss a third. Moving to somewhere with good local climbing isn't in the cards though, as I really dig this stay-at-home-dad thing and the only place my wife's job can go is DC. Ick.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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@Fear- If you have a newsletter, I'd love to subscribe. Preaching to the choir, and each time I get sucked back into the old house thing. Were money no object I'd love nothing more than a big old Queen Anne.... Sigh. If only.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
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Yup, going to cut the plumbing out of the way in the morning.
Did some digging, and found some pics to give perspective to the project (some might be in a thread about the house renovation I gave up on updating, as I didn't have a way to get pics posted from my phone at the time).
This is probably the best indication of the condition of the property when we bought it. How many abandoned boats to you see?
If your answer is "three", you're correct.
And the reason the interior repair has dragged on so long:
Figured first thing that needed to be done was stabilize the exterior, which hadn't been touched since 1960. Chipped off all the loose stuff, and then put up somewhere over 10,000 pounds of stucco. Sadly I only had the cherry picker for 2 weeks of the several months of working on it, as winter was setting in and I had a window of warm weather to finish what I could.
Some cool stuff was found though, like the panel between the front and back window weights in the one window box where the guy who made the windows signed it (I pulled all the weights when we replaced the *original* windows last fall. All told over 1,000 pounds of cast iron weights). Hard to see, but it says "Wm Kepfer July 1859". Actually found 2 signed panels, but this is the more legible one.
And of course, the basement... The black stuff is rotted wood, the white stuff mats of hairy mold. And the "dry" looking stuff on top wasn't, and was a good 16" above the cement floor. Everything squished when you stepped on it. Eww. Oh, and the weird thing on the left of the pic immediately below is the 1850's vintage octopus gravity heater. All told that heater was ~800 pounds of cast iron, and was hooked up to fairly modern ducting (1970's or so).
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 11, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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Holy f*#king shit!! Grab the parachute and JUMP NOW!!!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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Everyone dies sometime, Capt Skully. I figure idle hands get me in trouble, so may as well do something interesting. And if that mold and who knows what else hasn't gotten me yet (did I mention the *inches* of mouse poop in the cabinets of the cottage?), I'm going to live forever.
And truth be told, we really did get it for a song and the bones are good, so a basic clean and fix-the-worst will still put us well ahead. What's more it's on 1/2 acre and one of only a handful of properties in the township grandfathered for 2 dwellings, so that's a plus as well. Oh, and it's in a great school district, so when our 2 year old is ready it gives us the option of simply adding 10 minutes to my wife's commute and avoiding putting her in the not-even-worth-considering/worst-in-the-area school district we're in now. Knowing we had a couple years to work on it was a large part of taking on the project....
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Sep 11, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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Oh, I'm with ya, not ag'in ya. It just needed to be out there, is all.
It's traditional.
There seems to be some good ideas floatin' about and as it's not my field of expertise, I'll bow out to those that DO know.
Cheers!
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Sep 12, 2012 - 12:20am PT
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Wow. If it's any consolation here is my wife and newborn son (and dog) sitting in the "master bedroom" of our 1906 remodel in SF. The picture is several years old but the wounds still feel fresh...
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 12, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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^If that dog, did all of that, I'd put him/her on a leash.
As far as the floor joist repair goes, demo the wood. Demo is fun. If you can't handle the steel replacement like Mr. Breedlove suggests, get someone else to do it.
If you can't handle the demo, hire the dog above. Only thing I can fault it on is the cleanup. When I demo stuff, it's so clean you can eat off it.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 12, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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tgt, jstan and bruce are all on the money.
those of us living west of the 100th meridian mostly grew up in, working on, repairing, and building ballon frame buildings in mostly dry soils.
yr dealing with something a bit different. but it's not like it's that weird. most of northern and western europe spends huge chunks of its time dealing with similar issues. i would follow tgt's advice on the radiator and pipes regardless of what else you do.
my guess is that experienced local contractors are going to suggest two really different options-- the incremental/cheap option (chop out the rotten & sister it up) and the fully-modernize-at-least-that-chunk-of-yr-foundation option. we're guessing from yr post and pix that the radiator/pipes are the proximate issue, but given how low and old that corner is, and not knowing how the house is situated, it's tough to diagnose. anyone local is going to spend a bit of time on the outside scoping the drainage & soil,situation before venturing a bid on the basic obvious homeowner this-stuff-is-rotten style repairs visible in the photos.
but honestly, without seeing more, i wouldnt get too choked. it's an old frickin house. folks in europe (and new mexico) live in ancient sh#t that's falling down and periodically go round and brace it up with rebar or whatever. the only additional issue you seem to face involves the rotting wood which may attract termites or ants depending on yr local situation.
edit: that said, im with werner on steel. light, strong, termite proof-- really sad that americans didnt embrace it for residential stuff the way they did for commercial. most of the euro modernization projs involves steel reinforcement of ancient stone sh#t.
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