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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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May 10, 2006 - 11:10pm PT
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From looking at the Arch it appears to be in a state of highly unstable equilibrium.
It is quite possible that a single climber could bring the whole thing down.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2006 - 11:13pm PT
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Too lazy to research the thread.
Jingy, climber erosion is actually a serious problem.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 11, 2006 - 12:38am PT
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Piton... Serious to who? You? Me? Who the hell are we?
Taken from the one point of view that may just be here long after you or I, and our children's children are long gone... It's going to happen anyway. That arch will fall. Will the earth stop? Probably not!
"But what about future generations?", yeah we should think about them... But not by showing our appreciation for a damn rock. When a rock falls in the Valley who hears it? And who is there with the signs saying "We must stop rock-falls that happen..."?
Sorry again, we humans are f*&kin things up, in a big way and caring for a piece of rock will not change that.
Just take a look at any one of the base camps over on Everest, then tell me how sacred one of the worlds highest peaks is to those who have tread that path.
If we wanted the rock to remain in its natural state... we would not have started climbing. Who are you going to blame this on..? The first climber? I'm sure we can all have a good time trying to get a conversation started there.
Climb away! Climb anything and everything before it falls to the ground or crumbles into dust and is not even worth looking at any longer.
You want to keep things the way they are? That's fine. Don't ever go there. If it weighs too heavily on your mind then please, stop climbing. More climbing for the rest of us.
Nothing personal Piton. I'm just tired of the whole "save the earth" thing. I've heard it enough... haven't seen much action. And the reason is... there's nothing that can be done about environmental degradation. It's been happening since the beginning, and our "not going there" is not going to stop it.
Another Jing-Rant
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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May 11, 2006 - 12:40am PT
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I feel like I'm listening in on a bunch of stay-between-the-lines, bitchy gossips.
The rock doesn't care, we care about the rock. Dean didn't harm the rock. If others are tempted to climb it, they are responsible for the damage they do, and we should give them sh!t for it once we are certain about what harm they've done.
Climbing is an expression of freedom. I'm not saying there should be no rules or laws; sometimes my expression of freedom bumps into or infringes on someone elses, but IMO the rules against climbing those arches are senseless. If I believe that a law is senseless, burdensome, or immoral I may choose to openly or stealthily break it. If I do so I should know that I could be caught; if caught I shouldn't be surprised that I am punished for breaking the rule or law. Perhaps it will do good if I am caught: I may be wrong and brought to my senses by my punishment (and I will be an example to all the namby-pambies), or I may be right and I can now speak truth to power and fight the senseless law and expose it for all its senselessness.
Dean did not jump into being a sponsored climber like some of the crack whores out there. I don't know if being sponsored has changed him much (I haven't seen him for awhile), but I know he was rebellious and had a problem with authority which I don't fault him for. Perhaps he felt he had reached a point that he was in a powerful enough position that he could be openly defiant.
Did he know that while he was climbing that arch, he was also climbing through a loophole? I doubt it. I don't think he would have been surprised if he was cited for the climb. And I think he would have relished arguing in court. And if he realized it could have jeopardized his sponsorship, but he did it anyway? I sure wouldn't think that was stupid; actually if that were true it would give me some hope for the Disneyfied, McClimbing, sheep pasture, sh#t-hole that climbing is becoming.
When the government clamps down because Dean did his climb it doesn't mean he's a selfish a$$hole who has ruined it for us all (look in the mirror, climbing is a selfish pursuit)--it might just mean that an overbearing government has ruined it for us all and it needs to be confronted, and we shouldn't run away with our tails between our legs. If my climbing--my expression of freedom--leads to a kneejerk crackdown by the government, that is not an example of my expression of freedom infringing on yours--that is government infringement--period
Base jumping was legal in Yosemite for a time. The park service was willing to let people jump, but only on certain days and times (once a month?). Some jumped whenever they felt like it, and the park service eventually banned it completely. Now, some people look at that and shake their heads and say, "what idiots; they could legally jump and now they have to sneak, and if they are caught there's a $2000+ fine, a night in jail, and your expensive rig is confiscated, what dumbfvcks! all they had to do was follow the rules." But the naysayers don't get it--never will.
So, what a big fvcking cataclysm: the loophole (that no one knew was a loophole) has been closed and unless you want to openly participate in an act of civil disobedience you still have to climb Delicate Arch stealthily if you want to climb it and the other arches that are named on the 7.5' map.
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2006 - 12:42am PT
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The man in the newspaper said Deans act was hedonistic.
Jingy are you saying we should be hedonistic?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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Jingy,
I'm not a hands off kind of person but this was an imprudent act that could cost us far more than ANY of us could gain.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 11, 2006 - 12:55am PT
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Loom- Stay between the lines!
Werner- YES! BY EVERY DEFINITION OF THE WORD!
Piton-Who cares? He climbed! He has experienced that. I'm not going to pass judgement on him no matter what happens. I'm going to let all of you do that. What else will it cost? A few grains of sand?
P.S. No more big words, please... I'm half retarded!
Jingy-defense-of-Rant-three-on-one-tactic!
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2006 - 01:04am PT
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Loom
One thing no one really understands. The most powerful reason the NPS banned base jumping back in the day was because half the people couldn't land where the were supposed to.
Guys were ending up everywhere, out on the sandbar in the middle of the merced asking for help to get off. Landing in trees asking for help getting down. Landing in other crazy places and the rangers didn't know if they based or were injured or were ok. They had to run around and go find them and make sure. I know because there were many times when we had to go make sure this or that dude that flopped down in some out of sight place wasn't fuccked up or dead.
It tied up to many resources to many times and they got tired of running all over the place every time.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 11, 2006 - 01:14am PT
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Crosspost from MP:
I'm not a local, but it would seem to me that the relationship between climbers and Utah land managers is tenuous enough without the fallout from what was at least partially a commerically driven event. From my perspective the whole venture was ill-conceived and at this point neither Potter, Patagonia, or climbers in general stand to benefit in any way from it. Quite the contrary, it would seem it turned out badly instead by casting all of us in an arrogant light to land managers and the public. I'm sure none of this negative press was what Dean nor Patagonia had in mind at the time - but such is the peril all commercial endeavors entertain...
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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May 11, 2006 - 01:26am PT
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Thanks Werner. I didn't know that. So my example sucks : )
But, people still jump in large numbers, and they accept the legal as well as the physical risks. As I said, I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules or laws--and maybe there should be serious restrictions on BASE jumping if there is such a large-scale effect.
I still stand by my argument that if the group is punished for the action of the individual we shouldn't blame the individual, we should blame the punishing authority.
If I am a teacher, and I foolishly turn my back on the teenagers in my classroom, and a wad of paper comes flying through the air to hit me on the head, should I punish the whole class?
So lets all behave ourselves out there.
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2006 - 01:28am PT
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Jingy
The Earth is Conscious
This earth planet is not a lump of dead rock as many scientists would like us to believe. We have a body, the ants have a body, the earth planet is a body and the entire universe is a body. The common factor in all bodies is they are pervaded by consciousness.
The earth, therefore, is in a position to react to our attempts to exploit her resources for our sense gratification.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 11, 2006 - 03:15am PT
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PC writes:
Bruce, If that's the case then he must have fully anticipated the outcome of the event. I'm having a tough time seeing the upside to Dean on this venture...
Photos unlikely to be published - assuming ethical straight line by rags.
Possible loss of sponsorship - there are folks here already crying for the boot.
Video commerce? - Seems like the return on this wouldn't justify the potential negative press or loss of sponsorship.
MySpace or YouTube - post the video for free. Generate tons of personal PR. Reap what reward?
Beats me.
pc
---------------------------------------------------
One possible explanation for having all the media there is that Dean was defying authority and he wanted his defiance documented. Maybe this was a response to the slack line ban.
But, wether he did it for the publicity or as an act of defiance the end result is the same. And it is not a good result. We climbers have to fight for access to the rock and this kind of action only makes it more difficult.
Bruce
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 11, 2006 - 03:24am PT
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"k-man, this is clearly different than climbing devils tower. The tower has a voluntary closure for one month (I think) a year."
The one-month closure was a compromise by the tribes who hold the tower as sacred. They wanted it completely closed, but gave in to just one month, that during the Summer Solstice.
The parallel I'm trying to make is that certain places are "closed" because they are viewed as sacred. Folks still want to climb them, either because they are closed, because no one else has climbed them, or just because they have great climbing.
By and large, the climbing community has abided by the closures and have condemed the ascents of closed formations. Normally it's a compromise with "authorities" to ease tensions and allow for more areas to be open for climbing. People stay away from other formations, Mount Kalias for example, to honor the sacred site.
People who climb sacred formations rarely feel that thier ascents belittle the site, while those that hold it sacred find it blasphemous.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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May 11, 2006 - 09:36am PT
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I have sponsorship from the reverend Jerry Falwell to climb the Dome of the Rock and plant a crucifix. Looking for a videographer to document my sensitivity.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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May 11, 2006 - 09:44am PT
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There is this Mountain in Tibet, anyone up for a go at it?
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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May 11, 2006 - 10:41am PT
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Werner writes:
"Jingy
The Earth is Conscious"
Not sure where this is going?
"The earth, therefore, is in a position to react to our attempts to exploit her resources for our sense gratification."
Don't see how climbing can be considered exploitation of the planet? But, if that how you see it, I'm not going to be the one to try to sway you. Good argument, with the exception of the exploitation, because it goes to re-enforce my statements. the earth planet will have it's way with us... But not just us climbers! On the grand scale of things , I would think that my placing hands on rock does little to hurt the planet. It's the corporations that might be doing more damage to the earth planet. You want to make a difference... Stop one of them from drilling! Stop one from cutting down an entire grove of trees, or paving over another swath of farmland with nothing but a Wal-Mart to go in it's place. Stop one from buy our politicians from the prez all the way down to the local cop. Stop one from buy a public school, or dumbing down the intellect of the average human... Like what they did with me!
Jingy-Out
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2006 - 11:05am PT
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I am getting ready to climb Dingus’s house. I will free solo to the top. I don’t care if anybody objects because I might fucck up his roof.
Stupid logic!
The house is there and I’ve been studying it for years.
I must do it! I really must.
Hahahaha .......
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2006 - 11:12am PT
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No Werner. Don't start yet. One of the cameras needs to be focused.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 11, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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If you are really unhappy you should voice your displeasure to patagucci.
" I shall no longer purchase your products bcause you sponsor a selfish twit who is doing a good job of attempting to shut down a climbing area by his idiotic publicity seeking illegal actions."
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