Trad Experts - How hard?

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JLP

Social climber

The internet

Aug 20, 2012 - 03:43pm PT

What's rare these days is finding a modern climber who gives a rip about 5.11 and under. The benchmark sandbags you all cite are generally only difficult on the onsight because they are odd. That is all. For a fit climber doing 12's everywhere else, these 11's will all go down in a few tries, at most. Yet again, ST.com demonstrates cluelessness for all that has happened in rock climbing since the 80's.

WBraun

climber

Aug 20, 2012 - 03:46pm PT

Only on supertopo do people drool and waste their time with such nonsense over grades.

In the real world people just climb and shred ......

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Aug 20, 2012 - 03:56pm PT

That is all. For a fit climber doing 12's everywhere else, these 11's will all go down in a few tries, at most. Yet again, ST.com demonstrates cluelessness for all that has happened in rock climbing since the 80's.

Funny, I see people who I know consistently climb 5.12 sport thrashing and sketching on 5.10 trad climbs with some regularity year in, year out.

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Aug 20, 2012 - 04:02pm PT

Myself, I'm a solid 6 inches. Maybe a little more depending on the size of the crack and if it's wet or not...

Wait a minute... waht are we talking about?

corniss chopper

climber

breaking the speed of gravity

Aug 20, 2012 - 04:25pm PT

What Werner said.

Although it does help to be good at psychological manipulation for
the rare times when your partner start clucking like a chicken and wants
to retreat. Why going up is safer than going down can be a hard sell
when all the facts say otherwise.

splitter

Trad climber

Hodad, surfing the galactic plane

Aug 20, 2012 - 04:54pm PT

I prollie am not following the current direction of this thread cuz I haven't read any of the post's on it other than the OP's first post & of course the Bhagwan's (one must attempt to keep oneself somewhat centered, eh?). But, as far as ratings go, their ultimate purpose is that they occasionaly provide an ounce of humility, is it not? Both TZ & WW provided, in the least, that as far as I was concerned! And, since this is about being well rounded in all techniques, it does remind me of the minimum standards (free) that were once set (as far as prepretory free climbs) for the Nose & Salathe before one should consider attempting them, or feel prepared to, bitd! So, ratings are important, imo!

edit: i mean if JB was being honest about considering himself a well rounded 5.10 climber, that would seem rather humble!!

martygarrison

Trad climber

Washington DC

Aug 20, 2012 - 09:02pm PT

5.10 climbers don't on site free solo the Moratorium.

sethsquatch76

Trad climber

Joshua tree ca

Aug 20, 2012 - 09:02pm PT

Too Strong Dave, check!

splitter

Trad climber

Hodad, surfing the galactic plane

Aug 20, 2012 - 10:02pm PT

Marty,

I fully agree

splitter

Trad climber

Hodad, surfing the galactic plane

Aug 20, 2012 - 10:03pm PT

Marty - 5.10 climbers don't on site the Moratorium.

Let alone on site free solo it, and when the crux is wet, no less. In no way would I ever consider JB as simply being a well rounded 5.10 climber! I was speaking of his humility to consider himself simply that. John seemed to have a tendency to sometimes underrate climbs, at least as far as the norm was. imo. Some might say he had a tendency to sandbag, wudevah.Me thinks that he was simply that much better, and he was being honest because that is what it felt like to him. So, perhaps on his personal scale, that is where he put himself!

JB could have on sighted those seven routes that Largo mentions at the age of seventeen (or younger). And was, obviously a well rounded 5.11 climber at age 17 & if not, then no such animal existed at the time. Cuz, by then, or at least in one or two years of that, he was the best climber in the world. i guess what JL is talking about is how a well rounded 5.11 climber entails much more than someone who can succeed on all types of 5.11 a majority of the time (51% is a majority).

edit: I saw JB onsight Butterballs in the Spring of '74 with Gramicci. And he commented that they didn't even get a pump going onit! I believe he was just seventeen then!

semicontinuous

Gym climber

Sweden

Aug 21, 2012 - 06:03am PT

Agree. What are you people on? Being able to onsight 5.11 on knots in Elbsandstein, OWs in Indian Creek, runout slabs on alpine limestone, smeary face in Joshua Tree, overhanging jugfests in Kentucky, or whatever in the same year is not particularly uncommon. Thousands upon thousands of climbers are capable.

goatboy smellz

climber

Nederland-GulfBreeze

Aug 21, 2012 - 08:08am PT

The ballcuppers are thick in this thread.

JB was modest?
Only a few people in the world are solid on 11's?
Get real.

John you should probably change your avatar and go undercover if you want honest answers here.

can't say

Social climber

Pasadena CA

Aug 21, 2012 - 08:30am PT

Goatboy, that modest quote also caught my eye. John was anything but modest.

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Aug 21, 2012 - 10:43am PT

Pretty easy to be dismissive of steep sport routes around here.
Haters Gonna Hate.

...and I always thought calling yourself a 5.(whatever) climber was silly.

Hang loose ST.
See you 'round.

splitter

Trad climber

Hodad, surfing the galactic plane

Aug 21, 2012 - 10:54am PT

goatboy stinkz,

dood. you are right, the JB i new was anything but modest (was funnier than sh#t, though in a snarky kinda way. & it helped balance him out, imo). & the last time i saw him in the flesh, was 1979 (the magnolia boulders contest, san diego). very sorry to say, i don't know what he was like in his latter years, i did here he mellowed significantly. i was going by the quote someone made here,and did indeed atTribute it to his latter years!!

EDIT: dR.f. -- n0 shiit, i, & a dozen other people, already saId tthat (or implied it)! aNd tha rest 0f the w0rld, Already knowd iT!!

steve shea

climber

Aug 21, 2012 - 11:13am PT

JL you are so right. I also wonder why so many 70's trad routes get upgraded. A 5.10 bitd is still a 5.10 relative to what was done at the time at that crag. I guess folks are in a hurry now. Learning the crack techniques and placing pro to protect those climbs was what we did. Remember the flaring stuff in Aspen and the pro? Sport climbing is like jazzercise...climbercising.

mouse from merced

Trad climber

merced, california

Aug 21, 2012 - 11:57am PT

Hardmen come in all shapes, sizes, and talent is semmingly never divvied fairly among any competitive group. Training makes a big difference. The vid of the FA over the water and the dude's comments show that.

I got called a hardman once, but it was light banter, so I never took it seriously...

A hardman is one willing to pay the price to get the climb done right. I never trained. My hard was all in my pud.

The climbing ratings are a social convention so there can be orderly pecking, along with their being an indicator of strengths in certain areas.

I never wanted to be great at everything. Just some things. Many of you are like that. Eminently sensible.

Edit: Almost forgot, Riley. You are right on.
Riley, you are so right about weather and objective danger, too! But it isn't that big a problem in YV, so...

The classic Sheridan about Whymper never climbing 5.10 is made to order for this topic.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 12:04pm PT

Steve Shea wrote:

Remember the flaring stuff in Aspen and the pro? Sport climbing is like jazzercise...climbercising.
-

I remember doing some of those routes with you, up at Independence Pass, like Mind Parasite, the 5.11 route on the main wall, Center Route of the Plaque, and others, and having to place almost all the gear (before cams) and hoping that if I ripped, at least one thing would catch me. I remember doing Dean's Day Off with Lynn and wondering how Henry got anything in there at all be cause we didn't.

We weren't thinking about being 5.11 or 5.12 climbers. We were just trying to make it up stuff on sight and with no bones showing.

JL

nutjob

Gym climber

Berkeley, CA

Aug 21, 2012 - 12:11pm PT

In my book, one of the qualities of the term hardman makes an appearance here as well and denotes ability which spans a range of rock and circumstance. In this usage, a climber who can on-sight climb most any 5.10 I'd call a (5.10) hardman, while another climber who would flail miserably on many of those 5.10s but can reliably climb overhanging 5.12 sport climbs isn't a hardman: i.e., not a 5.12 hardman, not a 5.11 hardman, and not a 5.10 hardman.

I am a (5.8) hardman most of the time. Except when I'm not.