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jahwise
Trad climber
santa fe, nm
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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jahwise
Trad climber
santa fe, nm
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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This one is a fun one and has some good applications in the guiding vocation.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
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tobacco
widely used in the last several centuries of world history.
started mass production and widespread popularity in the 19th century.
declared unsafe in the late 20th.
lol
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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rgold: I think the presentation has a lot to do with the negative response.
The blanket statement of the OP, combined with the sloppy knot video does not present a strong argument for the discerning.
Additionally, the whole "finish that (potentially) ruins the beautiful, simple function of a bowline" thing really raised my ire as a long-time user.
The point is valid, but it seemed dismissive.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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I'd take the tail, jahwise, back around the DOUBLE loop(lacking) back through the "around the tree" loop & tie a fisherman against the main line.
Instant double backup.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
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I think the presentation has a lot to do with the negative response.
more likely the "banned in germany" brand. sort of like, "banned in wisconsin."
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
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I pretty much only use a double Bow Line backed up with a double overhand (1/2 of a double fishermans knot). Right there with Levy, Mr E, et al, as to why. I just tried to mess it up like that guy did and could not replicate it with the Double Bow Line. Maybe I'm not smart enough.
Prod.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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Ah, yes...the old bowline-on-a-coil. I remember it well, and have used it on occasion throughout the years...eats up a lot of rope, though.
A loooong time ago, it used to be SOP as the backup belay for rappels on Outward Bound courses...in the event the student's harness fails...(!!?). Funny how things that made sense at the time now seem so ridiculous.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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I sometimes use a follow thru 8 when I'm climbing with people who don't use a bowline to make them more comfortable, but I use the bowline I posted most of the time. It's not just easier to untie, for me it's easier to tie. For me it's faster, it's easier to get the length just right to have a double overhand back up with a few inches of tail, and as mentioned you don't have to remember to take out a knot that could get stuck when you are pulling the rope.
But the 8 IS prettier.
A knot check for me is often asking my experienced partners "good knot?" and they check themselves. It's really the double check to make sure the knot was done right that is important, not a separate person checking it. If I'm by myself at an anchor on a multipitch and I tie in again I'll double check myself, just before I weight the rope. And if I'm at a different anchor from my partner on a multipitch and I know they have retied in I'll call up "good knot?".
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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I'd take the tail, jahwise, back around the DOUBLE loop(lacking) back through the "around the tree" loop & tie a fisherman against the main line.
Instant double backup.
This is THE bowline knot to use, Skully. Ruppell, Levy, Jahwise etc. get it.
Do the research - the double bowline with the double fisherman's back-up is THE BEST bowline knot, and among the best when weight tested. Don't make me pull the links up.
Keep crankin' Brother!
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Jul 17, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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use to climb wearing a hangman's noose so as to lessen the falls,
like motorcycles, ride faster than you can fall and you will never crash,
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stefanfischer
climber
Germany
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2012 - 04:53am PT
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The Lesson? dressed and stressed?!?!?
The lesson for me is use one of the other knots, for which it doesn't matter in which order you dress and set them.
Don't use the only tie-in knot we know of that breaks down if you tighten it in the wrong way after threading it correctly.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Jul 17, 2012 - 08:46am PT
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If the point of the bowline is that it is easy to untie, why would I want to use that as my tie-in knot?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 17, 2012 - 09:15am PT
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If the point of the bowline is that it is easy to untie, why would I want to use that as my tie-in knot?
Gary, I'm guessing you haven't been jumping on your 5.13 proj. lately. :)
For real.. The folks I know that tie in with a bowline are generally doing it because:
a) They are taking lead falls off a sport climbing project and don't like having to un-weld the fig-8 with a screwdriver every time they untie.
b) Tying into really skinny or double/twin ropes that can be difficult to untie or..
c) They always tie in with a bowline because that's the way Royal Robbins taught them. ... so piss off you Fig-8 weenies and get off my lawn! or,
d) You are someone like my husband - who just likes bowlines better.
@ Stefan: I actually agree.. If you choose to use a bowline and are worried about greater safety... it's better to stick with a dressing that is easier to inspect for accuracy.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Jul 17, 2012 - 09:39am PT
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Gary, I'm guessing you haven't been jumping on your 5.13 proj. lately. :)
It's like you're omniscient! ;-)
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thedogfather
Trad climber
Somewhere near Red Rocks
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:18am PT
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For sport climbing we use the trace through bowline. Easy and fast to tie, redundant (if the second one loosens, you still are tied in with a single bowline) and super easy to untie. As a side note on this knot, we do the 24 hours of Horseshoe Hell every year where you climb around 100 routes each and lower off from draws after each route. Our forearms would be toast if we had to untie a tightened figure 8 after each lead or, heaven forbid, after a lead fall.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:36am PT
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^ That's how I've always done it. Bombproof.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:40am PT
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Because Richard Gold wanted it pulled all the way (well he wanted 12kN)I set up my other tester this morning. I couldnīt get the 12kN as the rope broke first, it was a fairly old 9mm half rope.
The first critical point is that for the knot to collapse is that the loaded strand has to straighten and no longer form a hitch. This can only occur if the knot is loosely dressed as otherwise the `around the treeī loop prevents this. By loosely dressed I mean there is visible slack in the upper bend, this is looser than I would normally tighten a knot and Iīm not a fanatic about correctly dressing knots at the best of times.
If we tie the knot loose (and incorrectly dressed naturally)it collapses to the aptly named `messī as shown in the video. As one keeps pulling this turns into a curious form of Prusik type knot around the loaded strand. On the rope I was testing with (9mm half rope) this slid at 2.3kN down to the tape loop (two layers 16mm nylon). When it hits the tape it remains as it is and continues to tighten as a slip knot which eventually failed at 9.4kN which seems quite an reasonable value for a somewhat older rope of this diameter. I tested a standard bowline with stopper to give a baseline and this failed at 7.9kN so one can reasonably say that the collapsed Yosemite version appears to be stronger than a normal bowline.
At no stage does there seem any potential for the mess to change into an 8 and this in fact seems impossible without loosening and manipulating the knot. As mentioned earlier in the thread (on UKC) this also seemed a perfectly adequate knot anyway (this was a previous test where I only took the various stages up to 6kN).
Ring pulled there seems no difference between the two ways (the correctly dressed Yosemite and the loop pulled up through variant) as they broke at 19.8kN and 20.1kN respectively. The tape is starting to cut at this point as well.
Personally I use the rethreaded bowline pictured directly above and this was the knot used at the other end of the test pieces since it is stronger, it didnīt break, turn inside out, fall apart or anything else exciting.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Jul 17, 2012 - 11:02am PT
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I switched to an EDK (flat overhand) for joining rappel ropes after a partner showed me it and researching it online - bowline tie ins just don't have an advantage for me yet (I don't like to take falls on lead), but this link I saw at MP seems pretty neat:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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