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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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And Britain and the Soviet Union both jointly occupied Iran in 1941 to keep it (and its oil) from going over to the Axis. And Alexander beat the heck out of Darius and turned Persia into a Greek colony in the 3rd century B.C. Extremely violent stuff has been going on in that part of the world for a good long time! George should have realized that Asia in the land of great massacres.
Karl makes a good point, though: what happens when the memory of the Holocaust fades in the younger generation in Israel? The Israelis are going to have to find another raison d'etre for their existence as a nation. Anti-Semeticism is as old as Tiberius, but the Nazi-inspired Holocaust (unlike the pogroms in Russia around 1910) seems like an exceptional event that's not going to be repeated, at least not in that same way, any time soon.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Somebody else made that point about the Holocaust, not me. I just think Israel is programmed to fade away as a race/religion based state that doesn't have conversion feeding the demographic.
as for this
"The US Senate does not shout "death to Iran!" on a regular basis."
Think about this. We are spending 10s of millions of dollars to destabilize the Iran government. We have covert missions happening inside the country as we speak. And there is reliable word that Bush is considering a preemptive nuclear strike on them and virtual certainty that he's serious about bombing them in the next couple years. Put the shoe on the other foot and see how we would react to that level of provocation.
The US poses a whole lot more serious and real a threat to Iran than Iran poses to the US. Shouting "Death to the Iran" isn't our style and culture, but It's clear that we threaten them more than they threaten us and that we have harmed them far more in the past than they have harmed us. (remember, we overthrew their government)
Apply the golden rule first, then see where to go from there.
We're not even "talking" to these guys but just threatening them.
Peace
Karl
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Yes, but why is Israel "a race/religion based state that doesn't have conversion feeding the demographic"? Answer: Because it was founded in reaction to a persecution that started in 1933 and ended in 1945. Germany would have to lose WWI again. That's the thing about history: It does repeat itself, but never exactly in the same way or with the same results.
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rocketsocks
climber
Bellevue, WA
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"Think about this. We are spending 10s of millions of dollars to destabilize the Iran government. We have covert missions happening inside the country as we speak. And there is reliable word that Bush is considering a preemptive nuclear strike on them and virtual certainty that he's serious about bombing them in the next couple years. Put the shoe on the other foot and see how we would react to that level of provocation."
Sure, there's some level of symmetry there, but that doesn't make for equivalence. There is also a degree of symmetry between, say, police officers and armed robbers in a shoot out. Both could be described as a group of people shooting at the others. However, that is the grossest oversimplication of the scenario possible. It's a bit like ignoring the difference between eating fine cuisine and eating dog sh*t.
Let's recap. The Iranian regime threatens America because they hate America (our culture, our large population of infidels, our success despite being infidels, etc.) and attack us based on that motivation. Meanwhile, the American government hates the Iranian regime (but not the Iranian people) because it is an oppressive, non-democratic regime and out of a defensive sense of self-protection. That's a pretty substantial difference, and it takes an incredibly blinkered mentality to miss it.
Quick question, would you rather live in an Iran defeated by America or an America defeated by Iran?
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Blight
Social climber
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"The Iranian regime threatens America because they hate America (our culture, our large population of infidels, our success despite being infidels, etc.) and attack us based on that motivation."
Hang on, YOU'RE the one spending your time saying how much you hate Iran's culture, large population of muslims and their success despite being muslims.
"Meanwhile, the American government hates the Iranian regime (but not the Iranian people) because it is an oppressive, non-democratic regime and out of a defensive sense of self-protection."
For the last time, IRAN IS NOT THREATENING THE US. How can the US be defending itself if Iran isn't threatening it?
Oh and one last point: Iran IS a democracy you cretin. At least learn the basics about people before you start spouting about how we should kill them because they frighten you you gutless little sh#t.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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>Let's recap. The Iranian regime threatens America because they hate America (our culture, our large population of infidels, our success despite being infidels, etc.) and attack us based on that motivation. Meanwhile, the American government hates the Iranian regime (but not the Iranian people) because it is an oppressive, non-democratic regime and out of a defensive sense of self-protection. That's a pretty substantial difference, and it takes an incredibly blinkered mentality to miss it.
Quick question, would you rather live in an Iran defeated by America or an America defeated by Iran?<
Let's recap with facts instead of stuff you just made up.
The Iranian government regards America as a threat because we overthrew their government within recent history and support Israel unconditionally, which is a sore spot among Muslims in the Middle East. (We protect Israel from following UN resolutions, allow them WMDs, allow them to colonize Palestinian lands against international law, etc.)
Meanwhile, the US government wants to control Iran because it's sitting on a giant pile of oil just as world supply is peaking, and it threatens to sell oil in Euros, which would tank our economy, plus its Shiite majority is linked with Iraqs Shiite majority so we've basically handed Iran a client state in Iraq so if we don't control Iran's government, we'll never get to keep our oily prize of Iraq. Plus Israel wants us to attack Iran.
It's madness to think Iran could defeat the US unless we wasted our economy and international credibility by attacking it. Iran has not threatened the US.
Don't believe the BS hype and radical preachers. There were no WMDs in Iraq, no link with Al Queda, and we don't want real democracy there either (cause that would just mean a Muslim Shiite state aligned with Iran) This is all about power, oil, money and Israel and folks are just using religion to make bogeymen. Cheney carved up the oil producing regions of Iraq on paper for the oil companies before even 9-11
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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For the foolish person, This is Hindu religion, This is Christian religion, and this is Muhammadan religion. But religion is one. How can it be Muhammadan religion, Christian religion? No. Religion is one. God is one. Because religion means the law or the order given by God. That is religion.
Simple definition
And religion is also one. If God is one, then how can religion be different? Just like state laws. If the state is one, the law is also, everyone. Now the ordinary law, just like "Keep to the right," if somebody says, "No, this is Christian law. Hindu law, "Keep to the left", will it be accepted?
If you say, "I do not see the President of the United States. Therefore I do not believe this law, "Keep to the left". " No, no. If you don't believe, that is your business. But as soon as you violate this law, immediately you are under arrest. You have seen the President or not seen, it doesn't matter. The law will act. Similarly, you believe in God or do not believe in God. It doesn't matter. The God's order, the God's law, will work on.
For this purpose the material energy is there.
Now, "Supreme I cannot see." You cannot see. Therefore Supreme's name, another name is Adhoksaja, "beyond the perception of your experimental knowledge." That is called adhoksaja. Adhah-krta aksaja jnanam yatra. By your experimental knowledge you cannot understand.
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d mcwilson
climber
missouri
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Werner,
If God is one and He is then Perfect, why would He need several different religions?
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WBraun
climber
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So although religion is one, it is revealed to different people in different cultures according to their ability to understand and practice.
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Loomis
climber
Praha, Ceska Republika
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RoboCat says: "Shut up and climb! I'll do the killing."
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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I'm sure if Field Marshall Paulus hadn't been defeated at Stanlingrad, you'd all be happily eking out an existence farming in a swamp in Madagascar courtesy of a one-way cruise on the French Navy. Ah shucks!
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d mcwilson
climber
missouri
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Werner,
Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the Father, but by Me."(John 14:6) This verse right here proves that not all religions are the same. Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father, not Buddha or Muhammed. Why then would God say this in one religion, that it is the only way, but according to you there are others?
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rocketsocks
climber
Bellevue, WA
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"Iran is a democracy"
Really Mr. Braniac, is that so?
I guess I don't know nothin' about them thar Iranians. I guess I didn't know that Iran does indeed have an "elected" branch of government, yet that branch is utterly subserviant to the will of an unelected group of clerics and mullahs. I guess I didn't know that the chief of state of Iran is, and has been, an unelected ayatollah, not an elected official. I guess I didn't know that any candidate for elected office in Iran is subject to approval by those unelected religious officials, and they reject very many candidates every "election". I guess I didn't know that Iran is as much a "democracy" as Iraq was under Saddam (and he got 100% of the vote!). I guess I also didn't know that according to Freedom House, http://www.freedomhouse.org/ , an independent, non-partisan organization, Iran is rated as "not free".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 10, 2006 - 02:11am PT
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It's true that Iran isn't a real democracy.
That makes two of us.
As long as coporate interests finance the elections, own the media, and the lobbiests too, we are ruled by money the way Iran is ruled by Clerics.
Different masters, same serving
Peace
Karl
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Blight
Social climber
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May 10, 2006 - 06:43am PT
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Quite so, Karl.
There are no real democracies.
Freedom is always limited. Killing people for not being free enough makes no sense.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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May 10, 2006 - 08:41am PT
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And there were communications between Iraq and Bin Laden
Wait a minute, I get it. Communications between Iraq and Bin Laden, communications between Saddam and Cheney, dealings with the bin Ladens and Bushes.
Holy Crap, they are all in this together.
We are truly f*cked.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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May 12, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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Fattrad, by using the six degrees of separation, I am also in on it. You see, I have e-mailed you, you have spoken with Arnie, Arnie has had dinner with Dubya, Dubya was fathered by George Sr, George Sr did business with the bin Ladens, the bin Ladens grew up with Osama
Oh my gawd, I am a conspirator…
(Isn't that actually seven degrees?)
Patrick
Jeff
Arnie
Dubya
George Sr
bin Ladens
Osama
yep, it is
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2006 - 01:29pm PT
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Patrick, Replace Cheney for Arnie and skip straight to the bin ladens. Gettin' closer...You're definitely dirty ;)
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rocketsocks
climber
Bellevue, WA
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May 13, 2006 - 03:08am PT
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"It's true that Iran isn't a real democracy.
That makes two of us.
As long as coporate interests finance the elections, own the media, and the lobbiests too, we are ruled by money the way Iran is ruled by Clerics."
Bullsh*t! That sort of sentiment demeans the people in Iran who have to struggle against real oppression. You think your whiny angsty bitching somehow draws the line narrower between your life of luxury and liberty in the west and the life of people under the boot heel of oppression throughout the middle east? Don't think so.
If you want to impress me you can immigrate to Iran permanently, to prove that it's just as free and democratic and as nice a place to live as the US.
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