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Jacko
Trad climber
Grass Valley Ca.
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Apr 28, 2006 - 09:01pm PT
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I will drive to the Valley and become a Sherpa, and bring beer.I am willing to pack loads to the base of the Climb.It sounds like a good time, except the part about packing loads to the base..... B.Porter
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Apr 28, 2006 - 10:02pm PT
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call me, i'll hump loads for cash
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 28, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
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Thanks for the clarification, aldude.
Of course, your post raised a couple of interesting points: "...Team Thaws' attempt at a one day and subsequent report of #2 heads driven in bathook holes the psych was blown!"
Who was "Team Thaw," and how high did they get? The fifth anchor is the highest I was aware of any team getting.
Also, why was the "psych blown" by some #2 heads in holes? I guess I don't see the issue here.
Explanation: Pretty early on on the slab we dropped a small bag containing many rivets and our good, large sharpening stone. So, we felt that we were rationing rivets. The one tactic we employed now and then was to drill a rivet hole and drive a #2 head straight into it. We counted each as a rivet, although they were much less secure than even our rivets. Each is part of the hole-count, and we figured that other teams could either just use them as we had or jerk them out (trivial) and replace them with the ubiquitous machine bolts called "rivets" by most people. These weren't "bat hook holes," and they can be trivially filled with regular rivets if people find that necessary.
As I remember, we reached the 13th pitch with four rivets left, which is how many I remember there are in the 13th pitch. If I would have had more rivets, I think I would still have drilled bat hooks on the 13th anyway, for reasons given above, but the fact is that we were out of rivets by then.
So, we were using what "rivet" tactics we could in some instances. I'd be curious from the second ascent team how many heads like that there are, because I don't remember many (like, a dozen, maybe). Also, it seemed to me like they were high on the slab, which again raises my question about how high "Team Thaw" (whoever that is) got.
Thanks again for your clarification.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2006 - 11:01pm PT
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So, what were most of the rivets? Funking those heads out the holes and redrilling them a bit would be easy. The other rivets weren't machine heads? Were they Zicrals, like Valerio states is the case on WoC?
Did you use 1/4" split-shaft bolts for the belays? The Bermuda Dunes belay bolts were that type, put in about the same time, and all of them were rotten. I'm guessing the WOS belay bolts would have to be replaced, especially because they're on the watercourse.
If PTPP went up there, would you object to his replacing the belay bolts with stainless 2" x 3/8" ones? How about the mid-pitch pro bolts? I guessing any reasonable aid rivets would be left in place.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 28, 2006 - 11:14pm PT
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Tom, most of the rivets (other than the few heads) were (can I get this right? Mark always corrects me.) Zamac brand rivets. These are made of zinc, with a split-shaft that expands when the center nail is driven in.
Our own drop tests confirm the 700 pound rated strength of these puppies, which is why we chose them over the typical machine bolts, which we have always viewed much more as bolts than as rivets.
At any rate, they are zinc, which is what the galvanizing process uses to keep steel from corroding, so I expect the rivets to be in about the same shape as they were. The center nail, btw, is stainless steel.
The heads should instantly funk right out, and, as I said, you can put whatever you deem best into those holes.
Anchor bolts, as noted, are probably really scary at this point: Leeper hangers and the old-style, split shaft Rawl bolts. We did put at least one 3/8 x 2 1/2 inch Rawl into each anchor, and if it weren't for the Leeper hangers on them, they would probably still be fairly good. But I would count on having to upgrade every anchor.
We did spread our anchor bolts way apart to make for good belays and bivies, so you won't find any cramped, "vertical to work as upward progress too" anchor bolts. We were CAMPING, after all!
I would expect only minimal work to have to be done on the rivet situation. The Zamacs are scary--by design! But they should still be good for somewhat more than body weight. Keep in mind, though, that we never intended or expected them to hold much in the way of falls. So I hope that this one quality of the route is not changed too much by the placement of too many grade-8 machine bolts.
BTW, I'll be out of town throughout the weekend at this point. So, the long delay is not me refusing to respond. I'll keep being as forthright as possible, and I'll try to catch up on Monday.
Good weekend, all!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
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At any rate, they are zinc, which is what the galvanizing process uses to keep steel from corroding, so I expect the rivets to be in about the same shape as they were. The center nail, btw, is stainless steel.
I'll look those up. It sounds, from you, that there is a zinc sleeve that has a stainless nail.
Zinc actually corrodes quite quickly.
With galvanizing, the zinc acts as a sacrificial anode for the steel. The zinc corrodes, feeding its electrons to the steel, thereby protecting it. Once the zinc is gone, the steel is unprotected, and it rusts away.
I would be concerned even for those 3/8" rawl bolts for this reason.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 28, 2006 - 11:50pm PT
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Richard writes re. heads bashed into bathook holes:
"The heads should instantly funk right out, and, as I said, you can put whatever you deem best into those holes."
Yeah, I get why you did it because you were short on rivets. Maybe that's why you said 200 heads! But it's my understanding that this practice is frowned upon. I am assuming you say they should instantly funk out, because that is what you found when the cables were fresh. I should think that with rusty twenty-five-year-old cables, that this is pretty much a guaranteed recipe to a deadhead in a hole uselessly filled with copper.
Does anyone have experience with this? I suspect the cables will break - will they? Or will they funk out easily? [We can always hope...] Is there any way to get the copper out of the hole? Or will we have to drill new rivets?
Thoughts?
Tom writes,
"ASCA didn't want to get involved in the "controversy" of repairing belay bolts on Bermuda Dunes, even though Steve Schneider had told us he was grateful were going up to do it."
Well, not exactly. Here's what happened.
I approached Chris in his ASCA role and asked him if we could get some bolting gear for Bermuda Dunes. I told him that we had spoken with Schneider on the phone and that Steve had given us his OK to do whatever we wanted to the anchors, including ADDING bolts. "Go to town!" were his exact words.
So I told Chris Mac what he said, but I also told Chris that I had never REPLACED a bolt before. I wasn't sure if I could do it, because at the time I didn't know how. I didn't want to misrepresent myself to Chris and blow my credibility, so I told him we would try to replace bolts wherever possible, and only add if we had to.
Chris told me that if I wasn't prepared to promise him I wouldn't ADD any bolts, he would prefer not to sanction me with ASCA stuff. So Tom and I madly scrounged bolts from every other source we could find!
As it turns out, replacing the old bolts was a snap. The learning curve was fast. It's not hard to remove old bolts with tuning forks. I wish I had spoken to Dave Turner earlier - he told me that in his experience, a lot of times you could funk out the old bolts! We should have tried that on Bermuda Dunes, and you can bet we will this time.
It's quite easy to pop out the old bolt, drill the hole out to 3/8", and place a nice new bolt. We did this 23 times on Bermuda Dunes. It was a good job, if I do say so myself! I told Chris Mac this, and Chris told me that for any future projects we would now be sanctioned by ASCA because we had proved ourselves. So Chris and Nanook - if you're reading this - please take note of our request!
We drilled no additional holes on Bermuda Dunes, didn't enhance any placements, didn't cheat. It was a proud ascent, I think. We'll replace the belay bolts on WOS if we go up there.
Tom - didn't we replace a bolt or two on Tribal Rite? One on the left side of that long ledge?
I look for advice on what to do re. bathook holes filled with a deadhead that we can't remove.
Richard and Mark - you say you were short on rivets at the top, and hence drilled the bathook traverse on P13. How would you feel about us putting rivets in those holes? Is this the right thing to do, or not? Thoughts?
"We did spread our anchor bolts way apart to make for good belays and bivies, so you won't find any cramped, 'vertical to work as upward progress too' anchor bolts. We were CAMPING, after all!"
Wow! What can I say? Some guys really do "get it"!
Thanks again.
Pete
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2006 - 11:52pm PT
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This is a zamac nailin anchor, available with a plain or stainless steel pin/nail. I guess if the zamac sleeve (zinc+lead alloy) is corroded these would be easy to pull out and replace with the same type.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 28, 2006 - 11:54pm PT
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See? That's why I bring my metallurgist along. Tom taught me how to replace bolts. He can even climb, too!
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pyro
Trad climber
stoney point,ca
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Apr 28, 2006 - 11:54pm PT
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I remember a few years ago hauling loads for chongo.
I was proud of it! Sammy was my Boss.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2006 - 12:12am PT
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So I told Chris Mac what he said, but I also told Chris that I had never REPLACED a bolt before.
Oh. You never mentioned that. I thought I told you that I'd placed and pulled a few bolts in my day. And that I had tuning forks and a special crowbar to get them out. No point disabling the enterprise by neglecting the resources at hand, eh?
BTW, if the bolts are really rusty, I wouldn't funk them. The bending load of the hanger getting yanked outwards could snap them right off. I had one bolt (at P6) on BD that broke, even with the tuning forks pulling straight out, with no bending.
Tom - didn't we replace a bolt or two on Tribal Rite? One on the left side of that long ledge?
Yes. One 1/4" rusty one at the ledge. I could wiggle it with my fingers. It's 3/8" now.
I forgot to ask if the cables on those heads was stainless. Good point about galvanized cable rotting away quite fast.
If the cables on those batheads™ are rusted away, you can drill out the copper/aluminum head with a normal drill bit (cobalt, not HSS). Turning the drill might be an issue, unless an old hand drill can be found somewhere.
EDIT - added the TM to my "bathead" term 8-) - /EDIT
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Apr 29, 2006 - 02:55am PT
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Ok, I have a better idea... then, haa, haa. If you won't answer me question.....
Instead of spending the money on beer, we put the money in a chosen fund that everyone agrees upon. The Yosemite climbing museum (established by Ken Yegar) to name just one that comes to mind.
I'll buy me own beer, aiiigh.
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etreez
Trad climber
Juneau, AK
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Apr 29, 2006 - 02:58am PT
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Climb it and tell me where to send the money!
Inquiring minds want to know!
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Apr 29, 2006 - 03:08am PT
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AlDUDE, waz up? Do you have any other details on Thaw and company's FOD attempt.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 29, 2006 - 03:33am PT
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Aarg matey,I do indeed : Believe he was with Singer....and the Vulcan (Aischan?). Started in the dark and ran into a mess of batheads... I like that term....with the cables snapped or missing in the vicinity of the third or fourth pitch. Apparently they labored onward by tapping sharp,thin peckers into the blobs but soon ran low on the little jewels. Backleaning was unnerving and time consuming and the constraints of a one day window doomed the enterprise. Maybe a batch of specially designed "needlehead" beaks would be prudent .... or torch the boots and foont like a madman
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 29, 2006 - 03:53am PT
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pl a,,pmpm upi can buy ,y beer tpp~!~!!!
edit, um don't know what this means.. ya lookin at this have no idea. I know i meant something but hit way wrong keys. Klaus wake up party is now on st.com cause i ain;'t in the city.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Apr 29, 2006 - 10:48am PT
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Jensen and Smith are just a couple of scapegoats for everything climbers don't like about themselves.
WoS must be the hardest route on El Cap, as it hasn't been repeted, not for lack of trying from some top talent.
We should lay prostrate in the presence of their greatness.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 29, 2006 - 11:30am PT
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I agree that Batheads are are a mistake.
I think route-erasing is also usually a mistake. Ask Robbins.
At a minimum the route should get climbed a few times to develop a consensus. It's not like it's an eyesore, just an idea. See what's up there and then decide.
I've seen batheads on Leaning Tower. We gonna chop that? Some used to talk about it.
Peace
Karl
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Apr 30, 2006 - 02:00am PT
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I also agree that batheads (good term, AlDude) is a very ghetto way to put up a route.
So, how many X's on the Reid book are actually batheads? Any? And what’s with all this weight issues on slabs? Combine free climbing shoes, chalk and some hooks? You are good to go, just watch your hooks popping off because they are not being weighted.
WoS was one of the last on the list, of my El Cap routes. Out of curiosity, I'm going to check it out on my rest day. Hea, hea…
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 30, 2006 - 02:09am PT
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Elcapfool,
I’ll take that to mean that you’re not interested in starting a WoS Fan Club.
Pete and Tom,
The character of WoS is quite dependent on the nature of the rivets. They must be body weight reliable or the climb would be unreasonably dangerous. Should they be replaced with machine heads that could hold falls, the opposite would happen. That Zamac pictured above looks about 1.5”. Ours were 3/4” (shaft length, fits a 5/8” deep hole). Each anchor in the Slab has one 3/8” bolt that’s not going to come out easily. I’d leave it alone and replace one or both of the other two (1/4”) bolts. The 1/4” bolts in pitches will be fun since you can’t hope to replace them into the same hole on lead. Options are to put a screamer on them or to drill right beside them and then yank the original bolt and fill the hole with epoxy.
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