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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
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LOL, how much do the want for her?
I wonder what type of computer is inside her?
What does she say?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 08:42pm PT
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I thought the whole idea was to save people from themselves? Impossible task I know... I can imagine a fool with a daisy chain made from welded quick links somehow getting loose of the system and heading off to the great beyond.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
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Juan:
The one I got I had to send back.... all it said was "Juan... you are the best." Might work for you though....
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:52pm PT
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Thanks for all the work Russ on the daisy chain, BUTT.... I've been using the daisy chain gig for over 14 years (I used to do alot of climing with a 3 person team and switching ropes, arguing over who got the next pitch was easier). But the daisy chain is for convenience people, to easily adjust a semi hanging stance at belays and feeding T/R's. Why doesn't everybody tie in to the anchor point with the rope, remember that colorful thing you've been trusting your life with up until the Belay?. Tie a Freakin backup knot on your lead line, clip your daisy correctly to allow a semi comfortable stance and let Darwin take it's course on the rest of the idiot nation that has to be protected from themselves.
Leave the Fish alone to test shoes and perfect the perfect econo ledge.
PS Juanito do you only read your trolls?
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
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How do I order a Fish welded quick-link daisy?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 08:59pm PT
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Mark writes: Why doesn't everybody tie in to the anchor point with the rope
Mark ya dolt!!! That is just the point. For that split second where you are into the anchor with just your daisy, and you get light headed and untie from the rope for an unknown reason, then you decide to clip the haul line from your ass into the bottom of your belay loop along with the daisy chain, and then your partner uses his belay knife to free the 400lb haul bag from the lower anchor prematurely, and it goes all the way to the end of the 600ft static line... THAT IS WHY WE NEED A BOMBER DAISY SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
please feel free to post again when you have something relevant to the subject at hand.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:03pm PT
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Russ, Do you hava a problem with me using your cord wood line in my next staff meeting?
Thanks
Batten
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 09:06pm PT
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I'm going into JT right now to test this new daisy chain.
This model has been rejected as not being safe enough:
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:13pm PT
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Well thanks for clarifying that for me Russ, after 6 mistakes I can rest easier knowing my Fish ultra Darwin proof daisy chain will protect me from myself. Does it come in red?
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:27pm PT
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Is that Beckey?
My true Yosemite story: High on Mescalito (the route) I went to that old two bolt anchor 20 above a huge ledge. Know the one? One bolt with hanger, one hangerless threader. Looped that with a rivet hanger, clipped in a daisy to each. Took in slack and tied the jug line into a sliding X. Did not tie in shorter. Hauled. Buddy comes up, starts backcleaning the C1 (admittedly a tad rotten) decides to blow out about 15 feet up so I can catch the factor 2 across my thigh with my (now-broken) finger caught in the belay device, which was an honest-to-God figure 8. The stitching gave a little on one daisy but the pocket didn't blow.
All true.
I am cordwood.
I'm also looking for partners. PM me.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:30pm PT
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Unless you're worried about the whole loop breaking (i.e. the full-strength sling bar tacking that makes it one big loop) why is a clove hitch any better than jsut using a girth hitch? This takes up quite a bit less of the sling...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 09:37pm PT
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A girth hitch would be fine, but,..... if your girth hitch is not cinched up real tight it has the potential to walk up the biner and then when you load it, it unclips itself. Just did it myself as a test.
addendum: I was goofing around with this some more and if the girth is not real tight, you can wiggle the biner around enough to get the biner to come out of the hitch and fall to the ground. Remote chances at best, but it is repeatable in the lab.
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jackass
climber
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Apr 27, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
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Russ,
Since you have the equipment. How does a double length nylon runner tied in off-setting loops by using overhand knots stack up? What kind of forces would it take to "pull through" an overhand knot or make the runner fail?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2006 - 12:33am PT
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Those knots will fail or roll at exactly 16Ks
(Ks = Kilo-shitloads)™™™
Sounds bomber to me. I bet they fail at about 50% of the rated webbing strength.
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cadl
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Apr 28, 2006 - 02:05am PT
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OK, bear with me ... first time posting an image ....
A slight variation on Russ' and Landy's design. Haven't thought through every angle and definitely have not done a dry-run test, but I think this will encounter a shear force in all scenarios. Have at it:
Happy and serene:
Alive, but ruined a perfectly good set of shorts. Where's the waste case?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Apr 28, 2006 - 02:29am PT
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For my next magic trip I will show how a eight harness knott will
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 28, 2006 - 07:29am PT
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I still can't believe I didn't understand this! Thanks for posting the video link and the other stuff. Geeeeeezzzz.......
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the Fet
Trad climber
: morF
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May 11, 2006 - 11:20am PT
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Russ, if you are still working on this fool-proof daisy for anchoring, I'd recommend reading this thread.
Daisy chain question.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/111061
Here is a quote from Largo, in turn quoted from an earlier RC thread:
Largo wrote: pg 5 of sliding x thread
Quote:
"That's why a person should never tie into the anchor with a tech cord/web daisy. A daisy made out of anything but nylon is a serious liability because it can cause shock loading (as seen in the recent Rock and Ice expose). You ALWAYS tie into the anchor master point with the climbing rope. NO exceptions."
Jim at Sterling has been drop testing daisies, etc. Defineatly stay away from spectra/dyneema. Here are some select quotes from sterlingjim regarding some very high force tests:
"Spectra daisies or slings should never be your sole connection to the anchor and probably should not be your primary. It's not the force of your partner falling in any scenario that's the problem. The problem is you falling directly on the anchor while attached with a very static 'umbilical'. How could this happen if you're hanging on the sling? Suppose you step up for some reason to adjust something or fiddle stuff around then fall backwards and BAM! You may break the sling, you may break your back, you may crush your kidneys. A whole bunch of unpleasant things may happen. Of course it's entirely dependent on how long the fall is but static materials care very little about fall factors they only care about force and how quickly it is applied.
Here is a sample of the tests:
11/16" nylon, impact force 18.4kN, held
1" nylon, impact force 21.11kN, held
1/2" Spectra, impact force, 20.02kN, failed
5/8" Spectra, impact force, 19.2kN, failed
10mm Dyneema, impact force, 18.9kN, failed
The impacts listed were the highest recorded out of five drops on each. All nylon slings held. All Spectra and Dyneema slings failed. All slings had a minimum rating of 22kN. A fresh sling was used for every single drop. It should be noted that even the nylon slings recorded very high impacts, high enough to threaten the anchor and certainly high enough to cause serious personal injury."
He also tested the Metolious PAS:
"OK, standard disclaimer: this is a very severe test and should not be considered conclusive in any way.
the results:
They died quick and painless.
Sample #1) 21.5 kN at 0.014 sec. broke
Sample #2) 21.7 kN at 0.018 sec. broke
FF just under 2, probably about 1.9. Mass 80kg. Drop distance 48"+/- 2"
"
So, it looks like good old nylon slings maybe the best thing we currently have to anchor with, if you can't use the rope. With a nylon daisy you are looking at possibly ripping out body weight pockets and ending up with a compromised sling due to all the ripped out bar tacks.
-The sky IS falling, or is that just cord wood, or perhaps parts of alien spaceships.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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May 11, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
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Personally I like cald's design (above) with reinforcment tucked inside the next to last pocket. simple, clean, probably cheap to manufacture. Having the extra piece tacked on the end like Russ's makes me nervous.
But I have a feeling that now that this is a public issue and the risks are well known any manufacturer who doesn't change their design is going to get their butt sued if a dad with 5 kids blows out of his daisy and decks. Current designs really are defective to my mind.
Of course there is always a work-around, clove hitch or two biners but hey, sh#t happens and not everyone reads supertopo. Why do we wear seat belts.
Personally I rarely belay off of only a daisy but I've probably done it, and probably shortened up by clipping a pocket. I also use daisys for jugging and again shorten up by clipping pocket. Glad I never had the opportunity to shock-load the system.
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kimgraves
Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
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May 11, 2006 - 12:44pm PT
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Hi Russ,
How about this design?
This way you have the strength and safety of the PAS, you don't need to girth the the daisy and you still preserve the functionality of the traditional daisy.
Cheers, Kim
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