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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Help the steelworkers! No shortage of iron that I'm aware of........
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DataMind
Social climber
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I dream of a day when there exists a wall gridded with bolts as far as the eye can see
Where "established" routes are relics of old.
No longer will the climber conform to lines suggested by guidebook authors, but rather will make her own decisions
on which way to proceed.
No longer will the climber strain under the weight of so many aluminum wedges only to realize she's taken too many #3s, simply
count the bolts and rack the wire gates.
No longer will the climber suffer the needless micro-beta sprayed forth by the digital minions, "place a 0.4 here", "save your #4 for the anchors", etc. etc. etc.
No longer will we waste time agruing over who retrobolted John Q's death route
In the future any savy climber with a knack for zigging and zagging could get the FA of a line
And I'll call it... Choose Your Own Adventure Wall
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
80' from the Hankster
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There are examples of poorly equipped routes at most crags; some are
A)over-bolted
B)some are under-bolted
C)some are outright stupid.
So do you
add bolts,
remove bolts,
or just toprope the route and call the FAist a,
A)Retard
B)Hero
C)Idiot
??
Up to the climber I guess. Anyone can put up a routes, and anyone can add or remove bolts.
So some guy puts up a stupid route. You go add bolts, and someone else goes and chops them.
Now we have three idiots.
I say just toprope routes that are runnout.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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And I'll call it... Choose Your Own Adventure Wall
Actually, such a route, probably the first of many, has existed since 1980.
"Lost on Lembart" begins at the bottom of Werners, thence up and right across Headrush, Watercracks, Cucamony Honey, Truckin' Drive, Rawl Drive, Willy's Hand Jive, to top out on Lunar Leap.
No fooling!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Climb cracks and wipe arse with poison oak.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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This post was such a troll it never should have been taken seriously in the first place.
There are some rare ocasions where the FA party did such a crap job on the FA that it needs fixing one way or annother. those are pretty rare thankfully. In general The FA party gets to dictate how the climb is done for life. Totally crazy f*#king rule but that is how it generaly is. I take that responsibility dead seriously and do the best that I can to make a route that is both exciteing and somwat reasonable. Not too many bad falls down low or over ledges but more exciteing up high where you hopefully won't hit anything.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Nice Locker! (almost made me go all religious and on ya) Total agreement!
"Just DON'T clip the fukers!!!...
Being older and having done many, many, runnout relatively harder routes...
I have come to the conclusion that it is just fuking STUPID and SELFISH bolting in a way that would have one DECK (or sustain serious injury) should they fuk up...
It's just EGO fuking bullsh!t!!!..."
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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As far as I can tell almost all retrobolting and bolt chopping happens on the internet.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It seems pretty simple, and comes down to communication. After 1.5 million posts on ST, we're getting that part dialed, arent' we?
With rare exceptions, thou shalt not add bolts to an existing route:
1. Without informing those who made the first ascent, if at all possible, or their peer group if not.
2. Contrary to the established ethos of an area and cliff - and the onus is on you to show that what you're doing is appropriate.
3. Before ensuring that all those who should reasonably know about it, or might have something useful to contribute to the discussion, are informed.
4. Contrary to the wishes of any land manager or climbers' access group.
Particularly where it would change the nature of the route in any way.
See Rick A's recent thread for tips. http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1837937/Flying-Circus-at-Tahquitz-add-bolts
And routes are as much created as discovered, and are often works of art. Even if some philistines don't appreciate them for what they are.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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So, all R/X rated routes should be retro bolted in the name of public safety?
The B/Y too?
Whatever happened to style and huge balls?
Should we chop the huge balls and mandate style to the lowest common demoninator?
What's left to aspire to? Strength only? I aspire to climb better with a feeling of calm under pressure.
Yeah, you can skip the bolt, but that's sidestepping the issue.
If a climb has a rep as runout, a chicken bolt dumbs it down even if you skip it.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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While I generally subscribe to the "First Ascent Principle" that Robbins articulated 40 years ago, I moderate that by adding that it depends on local understanding and consensus on use of the rock resource.
The idea that a poorly-protected climb is "unsafe" really has an unstated assumption, namely that it's unsafe if you lead it with the available protection. With a long enough rope, you can always top-rope it. If, for example, you don't want to lead (really solo) "Edging Skills or Hospital Bills" in the Meadows, nothing prevents you from top-roping it. You won't have the same experience as someone leading it the way Bacher did, but you still have the line to climb.
At a place like the Elvis Wall at Squarenail, we have easy-to-moderate sport climbs, all bolt-protected, each within about five feet of the next line. While I enjoy climbing there, I question whether we really needed to drill all those holes for a wall so susceptible to top-roping.
At this point in California climbing, can we really say that we have a shortage of routes? If you don't like climbing a relatively run-out Apron route like Coonyard, don't do it. There are plenty of other 5.9 slab climbs with better protection elsewhere. Sure, you don't get to climb 1,200 feet up it, but, to me, that doesn't justify adding bolts to that route. The Valley ethic (i.e. consensus of climbers) on Apron climbing was that you bolted by hand, on the lead, and this resulted in some long run-outs. That made the ability to lead low-angle slabs with long run-outs part of the skill set needed. When you lacked the skill set needed for a climb, you didn't change the rock. You either waited and got better, or simply climbed something else.
How is such an ethic illogical, indefensible, or irrational?
John
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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You misinterpret me, Locker.
It's not about ego, it's about style.
I have little ego, but I strive to have the steely nerves required to runout a route.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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When the Dike's route was first done, they only put in one bolt, but a later party got permission to add maybe two more. If the later parties had added a larger number of bolts, it would have ruined the adventure of the route, but just two more was fine.
The principle is, use bolts very judiciously, even with the permission of the 1st ascenionists. When Bachar/Yerian was first done, I think Tom Higgins even critized them initially, for bolting off hooks, but later he hopefully changed his view, as putting in just a few widely spaced bolts made it possible for them to put up an incredible route. Bachar would never over bolt, or casually use hooks to make life easier, so that's why he could do it, with such a deep commitment to a high ethical standard.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Have yet to hear an adequate response to "skip the bolt if you don't want to clip it"
I have yet to hear an adequate response to "Don't climb it if you don't have the skills."
How about this: I don't have a 4-wheel drive vehicle, but I want to go everywhere there are roads. All dirt roads should be paved. If you don't like them, don't drive on them.
In other words, how many bolts would be needed to ensure everybody found the routes they wanted to do were safe enough for them to try? Skipping bolts to prove some sort of boldness is plain stupid, nobody does that, yet everybody who climbs a route must deal with the unnecessary bolt(s).
Obviously it's not a black/white issue. There are certainly routes that could use added bolts to make them enjoyable. But that doesn't mean the sport has to be lowered to the lowest common denominator--which is what retro-bolting advocates.
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part-time communist
Mountain climber
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I, for one, appreciate the committing nature of some routes and feel that they should be kept that way.
Then don't clip the bolt and pucker away!
LOL
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Good post, k-man!
John
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Brandon. If your so brave or aspire to be that brave you should take up soloing. Soloing allows me to be as brave as I want without claiming an X rated ego route for life.
On the one hand I like climbs that scare the piss out of me yet on the other hand I have no use for moderate climbs put up by 5.13 climbers that no one ever climbs because they are X rated. Challange the heck out of me but don't be a completly stupid about it.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Tradman,
I stopped soloing after I decked into a snowdrift from thirty feet up a few years back.
I'm not an egotist, but I revere the bold nature of some climbs.
That feeling you get in the pit of your stomach when you know that you're going to run it out a ways is something I cherish.
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dfinnecy
Social climber
'stralia
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Locker sez,..
"It's JUST rock climbing. I have always had a problem when 5.12 climbers put up a 5.9 R/X route ( not R/X for them) and then for some strange reason want it to stay that way so that it prohibits the very 5.9 climbers the rating is appropriate for."...
I agree...
Seen many of those situations through the years and in most cases rarely if ever see anyone climbing those climbs...
So there they sit, no one climbing them...
Why is that a problem?
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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"You don't have to clip it" is total bullsh#t.
The bolt is still there. Like a god damn herpe on the snotty end of lockers hairy f*#kstick.
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