Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
May 24, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
|
I see that extended rig going right for the painful hair too (pony tail or not). Ow.
|
|
LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
|
|
|
May 24, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
|
yeah those extentions can be a pain for those reasons.
and yeah the lower back up is easier to use until weighted but the upper tie in less likely to fail. It's got a few more nano seconds to grab before the end of the rope slips through and less likely leverage from the climber / harness that would prevent a good grab. Should the prusik knot from below the device run into the device from rope stretch , climber position etc , it will no longer function. Rope runs right through if not knotted on the end (there's another discussion).
now, that leg loop is not fall rated , and has a greater chance of failing itself under rough conditions due the design and materials. Statistically this may be less of a problem on straightforward rock routes, but a much higher risk factor in multi day snow and glacial travel and ice climbing. Therefore I go with the upper tie in just to keep my protocol ducks in a row.
and if you are short or light there is little distance between the leg loop and the belay device, which is required to give the prusik room and weight to work.
at least we are all using back ups and right on rgold and others for the op topic
|
|
Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
|
|
|
May 24, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
|
I did a day of aid practice with a guy who used a skinny cord for prussic back up above the rappel device.
I could see it coming but let it play out- took him about 45 minutes to extricate himself when the prussic jammed going over a roof.
Have never had or seen problems with autoblock clipped to leg loop.
(Oh wait, is this horse dead?)
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
May 24, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
|
No, this horse isn't dead.
Extensions are a PITA if they're too long.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
|
May 24, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
|
If you really want what's safest for you and your wife, don't use multi pitch rapping as a way to "learn." Learning on the fly is for when you're young and selfish and willing to face the learning curve with a bit of ignorance. We all do/did it, but your situation is different. Reading "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" every year has made me realize how frightningly real accidents can and do happen to parties just like yours. Its horrible. Don't go up there and "learn" to rappel. It's your wife's life in your collective hands and you are he leader here.
This is what I'd do
1. Practice on a single pitch route the day you get there. Have her do a few...a bunch if you can, while you top-rope her on a short sport climb. This might take an hour or two max.
(have her back-up, set up, check, remove the backup and rap...Then do it again. Then have her do it with her eyes closed at least once)
She should OWN this one technique before you leave the ground. What happens if you fall and get hurt and she needs to get down alone. It happens.
2. Then go up and send that route. Pre-rig her if you want,and talk it out each belay.
Let us know how it goes.
Be bold. Be smart. You guys are gona have a blast.
Scott
(And look up how to use a klemheist or autoblock while you both rap. A smart move for sure.)
F*#king word!
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
May 24, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
|
I've never backed up a single rappel. Not one.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
May 24, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
|
Never have a complete noob worry about the auto block. too much information. do what RG says. Pre rig and Firemans. On single pitch lessons there is one instructor @ the top teaching/superviseing getting into the belay/ rap device and one @ the bottom provideing the firemans belay.
Back ups. haveing done both extensivly the auto block below the rap device is 1,000 times better and more usefull than the prusic above the rap device.
prusic above the rap device must hold body weight, can melt through if it does not lock up fast enough, is more finicky about locking up and then takes considerable effort to unload after locking up. Autoblock (NOT PRUSIC) below the rap device is never holding more weight than your brake hand would. It simply acts as a brake had. If you set it up correctly it is super easy to both rapell and lock up. I use it extensively exploreing new climbs and it gives you instant hands free lock up to trundle huge loose flakes and rip out giant posion ivy bushes. Just let go of the rope (once you have your system dialed) and it locks up, make certain your rope is in a safe place, unlimber that 4ft prybar and let the games begin:) Smell the sulpher, get your hertbeat back under control and continue rappeling with no fuss...
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
May 24, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
|
Seems as if there's a variety of opinions.
(sotto voce Oh Really?)
And a lot of implied voting going on
So I won't repeat a bunch of stuff but will throw my lot in with Clint Cummings, rgold and tradmanclimbs.
1: Don't teach rappelling on multi-pitch.
2: Experienced climber goes first, assuming he/she is able to get the 2nd ready.
3: Fireman's belay (this is surprisingly effective)
4 : Autoblock below belay device (practiced on the learning rappels)
5: Practice several single pitch OR SHORTER rappels first. Then do items 2 - 5 (Corollary to #1)
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 01:51am PT
|
First of all, AAI doesn't disagree. The note describes a potential problem and gives a solution. At no point does it suggest the alternative method with the friction knot above the device. The final picture, entitled "The climber set up to rappel properly," is
Note the location of the friction knot.
Second of all, the friction knot above the rappel is the old-school method. Knot below the device came later. [Larry Penberthy in Off Belay No. 16, pp 10-11]
Finally, the best way to set up the system doesn't use the leg loop at all. You extend the rap device and put the friction knot on the belay loop.
[Image courtesy of Petzl]
Moreover, leg-loop buckle or not, this is the safest set-up because raising the leg cannot move the knot up against the device and release it, something that was the cause of a fatal rap accident a year or so ago to a very experienced climber, ironically a death that would not have happened if a rappel back-up had not been used. In the AAI picture above, it looks quite possible to me for a raised left leg to release the friction knot.
None of these issues makes the friction knot above the device preferable. The biggest problem with the knot above the device is that experiments have shown that a climber who loses control will not release their grip on the friction knot and so it will not function as a safety. [The Tech Troglodyte, Vol. III, No. 2, Winter, 1965, pp. 31-33] The tests were conducted with a belayed rappeller using two ropes, one for the friction knot and the other for the device. The device rope was set up short, so that the rappeller rapped off the end of that rope, thereby losing control of the rappel. In order to stop, they would have to release the friction knot, but even if they knew exactly when they were going off the device rope, the grip reflex was too strong, the system failed to stop the rappeller, and the belay had to be used.
Of course, putting the knot below the device but on the harness belay loop may not eliminate this problem either, because in that configuration the knot is controlled by the non-brake hand. A knot on the leg loop can be controlled by the brake hand only and will be released if the brake hand is released. Choose yer poison.
I mention these things for those who want to use a rappel backup and are interested in what seems to me to be the most rational choice, but I'm not advocating such backups, and personally, I rarely use them for ordinary rappels.
|
|
gimmeslack
Trad climber
VA
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 08:47am PT
|
I like the backup if first one down. Everyone else can get a fireman's belay. The extension works great as per Petzl drawing. Serves as a nice extension for clipping in at anchor and the safety has an added bonus that when rigging the ATC, you can pull up some slack and lock it off, allowing you to rig ATC w/out supporting weight (which can be a PIA paricularily when using 2 ropes). Backup is VERY short sling, so it doesn't get in the way of anything when racked on back of harness.
http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/activities/sport/tech-tips-multi-pitch-climbing_Catalog-2010.pdf
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 09:46am PT
|
Uh oh, we're getting into endless argument territory over things like the location of the rappel backup...
"and that old highway
goes on forever ..."
so, just to explain/qualify some things i said--
1. prussik, autoblock, klemheist--"friction knots" using a prussik loop. take your pick.
2. whichever one you pick, always test it on your rope before you go with it. if diameters or flexibility are wrong, it could slip. make sure it grabs. you may want to put an extra turn or two on it. and "dress" the knot so it works as it's intended to.
3. what i mean by "yarding up". put your feet on the rock and push off and up enough to give yourself a little slack, then take up that slack quick on your rappel device and hold it. it'll take the tension off your friction knot and you should be able to free it. if you aren't athletic enough to do this, consider that other sport mentioned by mouse from merced. if you anticipate needing to yard up out in space where your feet can't reach the rock, you'll need the upper body strength involved in doing a pullup or two in order to catch that slack. or carry an extra prussik loop. the old RCS come-and-join-us test involved prussiking back up over an overhang, which really put this stuff under your skin.
|
|
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 09:55am PT
|
a logistal quagmyre...
Don't let me know how this turns out... unless everyone lives!
|
|
martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 11:19am PT
|
I always had novice partners go first with a belay. If you need to carry a 7mm or something I would.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
|
LP
hey there!
I had the same concerns as you do about the Autoblock.
It was a very up to date guide (whom you also know) who convinced me (I was skeptical) to go back to the Autoblock when the rapp could be sketchy. As long as you rig it right.
Autoblock or Klemheist are the preferred knot. I prefer the Autoblock.
When it's deployed below the brake device, there is little tension on the autoblock and it's easy to release. When the brake device is extended a short distance above the harness, there's almost no chance of it being released accidentally.
The prusik is NOT the best for this usage because it doesn't grab as quickly or surely and then can bind and be difficult to release.
I always had novice partners go first with a belay Also a very good way to do it. As long as there's a solid, easy to use anchor at the end.
|
|
KlimbIn
climber
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
|
rgold FTW
and notwithstanding the "which friction knot is better" battles and/or "the above or below the device" battles:
not backing up your rappel is for idiots.
but I'm with rgold that in this case the second should be backed up with a fireman's.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
|
Tony. try that spinning out in space on a free hanger... there is not even asny comparesion. The back up above the belay device is as outdated as nailing free climbs and much more of APINTA. back up below the device if done properly is super easy, super effective and a no brainer once you actually learn how to do it the right way. I was one of those stubborn old farts who did not believe in it but somehow I smartened up....
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
|
"...not backing up your rappel is for idiots."
If you are inferring that this should always be done, under all circumstances, I'd say such a dogmatic approach is a reflection of ignorance &/or inexperience. (No flame intended.)
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 02:11pm PT
|
I have rappelled off of a Patagonia tower at night, hundreds of feet of free hanging rope on El Cap, the Grand Teton with lightening blasting all around, desert towers in raging thunder storms, with piton laden bags hanging beneath me, the east ledges in the dark, and countless other harrowing and/or banal descents. All with no back up.
Do it correctly every time. Less is more.
Someone who needs pre-rigging and that other bullshit just should not be there in the first place.
I'll surely be kilt this weekend in a rappelling accident!!1166
|
|
rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
|
Wow. Someone a few pages back said that rappelling scares them. Does belaying and lowering scare them because that gets done quite a bit and there are plenty of belay accidents in those ANA books.
If you back up your rappel, why not back up your belay? Or is it fine to be unsafe when it is someone else's life in your hands?
Dave
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!