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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Apr 25, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
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Heh, wasn't suggesting using the supertat, just breaking the sh!t for fun
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Apr 25, 2006 - 12:40pm PT
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I was on the nose a few years ago, using a black diamond daisy and leading through the changing corners. I bounced on a piece and the daisy chain ripped apart on the non-bar tacked side. It was pretty strange.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 25, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
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nOOburite?
Dare I ask?
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tico
climber
SL, UT
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Apr 25, 2006 - 07:08pm PT
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"Cloved dyneema? Do you have a biner or a stopper knot on the end, or the other end clipped into the biner or something? A single clove on the slick stuff sounds like a recipe for a snail retreat to me."
Nope, just a single clove. No appreciable slippage. Try it some time.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 26, 2006 - 11:47am PT
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well .. BD has had a warning about not clipping more than one loop at a time on their daisies forever.. (hey I actually read the instructions!) ..
.. i am sorry that people still misuses this equipment ... gotta wonder how many accidents were due to this? -- (haven't read any that atttributed the accident to misuse of daisy in ANAM)..
.. lastly as aid climbers, we all know that daisies are weak and can blow .. does anyone here clip into their anchor only with a daisy .. (hopefully not) .. use the rope, its already there.. and its very strong.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Apr 26, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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I'm not saying it would slip with normal use, I clove stuff all the time with mammut runners. What you're doing is fine if backed up with the rope, but since the failure mode of most knots in dyneema tape is slippage at relatively low loads, I wouldn't hang the whole meat sack off of this system.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 26, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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The question was posed:
"Does anyone here clip into their anchor only with a daisy? (hopefully not) .. use the rope, its already there.. and its very strong?"
WTF is a daisy for if it can't hold 10 times ones body weight?
This is just stupid. A statement like the question would mean a daisy is worthless.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Apr 26, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
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"Also, asking the question "Is my life worth $29.95?" is so jejune."
I learned a new word today!
Anybody seen the new Mammut 6mm runners? Fondled those in a shop the other day and experienced significant shrinkage. Be afraid.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Apr 26, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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Isn't this old news? Don't shorten a daisy by clipping into two or more loops? I use a daisy to clip into the anchor, if there is one, when I first get there. I carry it shortened but make sure the biner is clipped into only one loop when I attach it to the anchor. Then I tie in to the anchor with the rope. The daisy is redundant until I take the anchor apart. It's the last thing I unclip before leaving.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:51pm PT
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Holy frig! I so did not get that! Thanks! Watch the video!
[I have been using adjustable daisies for years, however]
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JAK
climber
NC
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Apr 28, 2006 - 01:05am PT
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Ok, firstly a disclaimer:
I'm a total baby at this, been climbing about 4 months now, mostly on toprope or following sport routes lead by someone else. I'm as green as can be, so bear in mind that if I ask a completely moronic question, I come by it honestly.
Anyway, in the rare instances when I have had to clip into an anchor point thus far (mostly to neaby bolts, cold shuts, etc. when rigging or cleaning an anchor) I've typically used a 12mm Dynex runner with a locking biner on each end, one through my harness hardpoints and one into whatever's anchoring. Both biners have been clipped into the runner, and then biner-through-biner shortened if necessary (typical sling/runner shortening).
Yay? Nay? The runners are rated at 22kN and they're the weakest link in the "chain" (harness excluded). I mean, I understand it's not the most versatile/convenient solution in the book, but it's worked fine for me and I see no reason to fix what ain't broke.
Oh, and to the guy who swore he'd "never trust his life to a pieace of nylon", never run some webbing around some natural anchors for a toprope setup? I mean, just asking, as the mind do wonder.
Anyhoo thanks for the vid and feedback in advance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2006 - 01:25am PT
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It's all relative. A rope is a piece of nylon right?
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JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
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Apr 28, 2006 - 01:26am PT
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Well yeah, I'd agree, but I'd also think a kN is a kN...
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tico
climber
SL, UT
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"I'm not saying it would slip with normal use, I clove stuff all the time with mammut runners. What you're doing is fine if backed up with the rope, but since the failure mode of most knots in dyneema tape is slippage at relatively low loads, I wouldn't hang the whole meat sack off of this system."
I think I failed to explain it properly; the rabbit runner is girthed through the waist/leg loops, then i use a locker at the other end for clipping in, and adjust the length with a clove, either on that same locker or another biner. But I'm always in to the end loop of the rabbit runner.
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Dusty
Trad climber
up & down highway 99
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Interesting topic, but unless you're in the next-to-last loop on a daisy, there's no way in hell you're going to generate enough force to rip multiple sets of bar tacks, unless you're belaying a couple of simul-climbing Sumo wrestlers factor 2-ing onto the belay, dipped your daisy in sulfuric acid, Naty light, or King Cobra, or borrowing gear from Chongo.
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david yount
Trad climber
West Coast and some East Coast
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May 22, 2006 - 05:40am PT
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That video by Black Diamond is very educational. Likely almost no one had figured out that topological nightmare; it was a surprise to me. Almost like a magic trick.
Girth hitching a biner to the final pocket is the easiest way to completely prevent this startling magic trick when using a Daisy Chain.
But the topology required for that magic trick to work is strict. A single twist to the right or a single twist to the left, or multiple twists either direction will not allow the single biner to become disconnected from the Daisy Chain after all the bartacks are blown between the additional pocket clipped and the final pocket. The only way this failure mode can occur is if there exists strict unique exacting topology. But rarely do I observe daisy chains racked or employed without twists in them.
Though the threshold / activation force of approximately 3kn (?) can be achieved by a climber at a belay who has decided to climb upward and then who subsequently slips and falls, in the process of destroying one section of bartacking an amount of energy is absorbed and each subsequent pocket is secured with another section of bartacks.
Black Diamond makes a 15-pocket 15mm (?) model (spectra / dyneema / dynex ??) and virtually always I select pocket 8 for a comfortable stance below my anchor matrix. There exist 7 pockets between pocket 8 and the final pocket, 7 sections of bartacking. The energy required to fully destroy one section of bartacks is significant, and the fall may be arrested before the final pocket's bartacking is fully destroyed.
Finally, although bounce testing aid placements with tattered Daisy Chains is known to overcome the bartacking, I've not yet heard of a free climber at a belay busting through bartacking on a daisy chain in reasonable condition. As Mike Libecki asked, maybe Anastasia can encourage the mentioned climber to post their direct experience?
This seems almost like identification of a theoretical issue that is not a problem in reality, clipping the last pocket biner to another pocket to shorten the tether.
Girth hitching a biner to the final pocket should become Standard Operating Procedure - SOP - for those that wish to use Daisy Chains to secure to the anchor.
And far wiser when using a Daisy Chain thusly: don't climb up from the stance while the shortest tether between climber and anchor is not the climbing rope, or just don't climb up while secured to your anchor matrix. If you switch to the Metolius PAS or the adjustable spring-cam-buckle daisies or go back to using double-length runners to tether yourself to the anchor, though you won't have to contend with the (highly unlikely) catastrophic magic trick caused by clipping multiple pockets on a Daisy Chain (remember to girth hitch the biner in the last pocket!), you still have to deal with the fact that in order to destroy the bartacking a sufficiently severe slip and fall needs to occur and any tether to the anchor (other than the climbing rope) will transmit huge loads to the anchor pieces.
Once you're secured to the anchor don't climb up from your stance!
In the final analysis I agree with an older post by Chris Harmston, technical climbing equipment is designed, manufactured, bought and used which will fail, it all may fail. If it was designed to protect us always then the smallest cam might well be 8-inches width of protection and we couldn't lift a rack to free climb. Sir-Run-It-Out is on the same wavelength:
It is possible to over-engineer a product. It doesn't have to be perfect, merely good enough. Of course, the real question is what is "good enough." Hence the question, what does it take to blow out the stitching between the loops on a daisy, and has this ever happened in real life?
As well as rocketsocks:
-Seems to me that a daisy chain is a piece of equipment which can be very dangerous if used in the wrong way. And using it wrongly can be very easy to do without noticing. How exactly does this distinguish it from any other piece of climbing equipment?
The Purcell Prusik (new name for old rigging) is a sweet idea but I've tried it and found it very limiting in ultimate adjustability, it in no way matches the full span of adjustability as the 15-pocket Black Diamond Daisy Chain.
Further, it offers no discrete pockets which can be very useful for racking water bottles, packs, cameras, over tight shoes, gear, etc.
Karl Babba seemed to steal my very own thoughts:
-I use a daisy freeclimbing to attach to the anchor at just the right distance for efficiency and comfort so I can get the weight off my feet and free up my hands.
-I back it up by clovehitching the rope to the anchor and generally flake the rope over the rope when I belay the second up.
-I commonly lead most the pitches so the daisy acts as a temporary tie-in when my partner comes up, we switch rope ends (with the rope flaked over it) so the rope is all flaked and ready to go. I find this much more reliable than flipping the rope over onto their tie-in and I hate getting caught short on belay. This is a fast way to lead in blocks.
[my second passes the gear to me by clipping the pieces in an orderly way on the pockets of my daisy chain, I've never liked passing gear hand to hand, greater chance of something getting dropped and this way I can re-rack in the order I prefer, it also allows us each to concentrate on what we're doing individually without requiring the other to wait]
-Anyway, I'm very mindful of the weakness in double clipping daisies and always nag my partners about it if I see them doing it. I tell em to either use a second biner to snug up the length if they need to adjust, or clove/girth hitch the locker in the end loop so it doesn't matter if they double click.
-There are a number of other advantages/efficiencies in using daisies for freeclimbing, mostly multipitch, rescue, and rappelling, but I don't have the time or inspiration to write them here.
-Just don't assume because it's not part of your system that it's somehow lame and stupid, because it's not. We have different ways of doing things. [ahmen]
David Yount.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 22, 2006 - 10:50am PT
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Another nice feature of using a daisy as part of your tie-in system is this
I jus have my second hand over the gear by clipping to different loops of the daisy. That way they are never just holding the piece waiting for me to quit fiddling with the last one. Just one more little time saver that adds up in the end
Peace
Karl
I'm always preaching daisy safety to my partners but it's worthing noting again that this weakness has rarely if ever translated to an accident. What you really really must guard against are mistakes made when tired or not paying attention. Eating a powerbar or Gu before you bonk is the greatest safety gear.
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the Fet
Trad climber
: morF
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May 22, 2006 - 11:21am PT
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I have gotten away from using a daisy as my primary attachment to the anchor due to the high peak forces that can be generated if you fall on a mostly static line. (e.g. if you fall even 2 feet onto an anchor with a static connection, it generates a lot of force).
Above it was mentioned don't climb above your anchor (because if you fall on it, it can be a factor 2 fall). That's good advice but sometimes I will still want to do it. e.g. while belaying the second I'll reach up and set the first piece off the belay to save a little time.
So I now almost always use the rope as my primary anchor. A clove hitch is easy to adjust to get the right length to rest on, and if I want plenty of room to move around (e.g. changing from standing to sitting on a ledge) the rope won't come up short like a daisy sometimes will. I'll still use the daisy for setting up a rap/rescue.
Looking at the forces generated it's amazing how much better a little elongation is for a climber. A 4 foot fall on a static daisy could rip your anchor out, but a 100 foot fall on a climbing rope could be no problem. Elasticity is your friend.
YMMV. Of course you can use gear any way you want, but personally I try to do things as safe/efficient as possible, so I don't have to think about them, and I'm best prepared for an unexpected situation (which although rare, can happen). e.g. your partner starts the new lead, climbs up 10 feet, breaks a hold, falls sideways, and lands on you, it would be very sketch being tied in with a static line in that situation.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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May 22, 2006 - 11:58am PT
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In Davids fillibuster he wrote: Once you're secured to the anchor don't climb up from your stance!
Never happen. Moving around in the station is why we use a daisy there in the first place. Many times you have no choice... stuck rope, high piece giving drag, etc.
Somewhere in all that text you said something about how unlikely it would be to rip enough pockets to escape the system. The reality of this is that you don't need to rip them all (not that you even could). If you are clipped in real short and fall, with clipped in meaning the end loop of the dasiy with no clove etc, your fall distance is short, thus not enough force generation to rip all the pockets needed for catastrophic failure. But if you are clipped into the end loop and the next to the end loop is your perfect adjustment, then you climb up and fall, the longer tether coupled with the failure of the next to the last pocket will free you from the system.
We are rapidly approching
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