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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Roger, You're from Ohio, you have no say.....HA!!
:0)
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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that was also the first forum thread on mp ive ever read- even tough I use the site for ticklist. All I can say is that place makes the taco look like a bastion of intelligence and civility.
I'm totally giving to CABOMOC this year
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jstan
climber
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No, clean pro quickly caught on because it was hugely easier to place and remove.
I think this over simplifies.
Areas and the problems they present are all different and cultures are also different. Let me confine my remarks to the Gunks and Seneca, if I may.
When one is changing the system used to protect one's life, physical difficulty in using the new system is not the factor uppermost in the mind. The primary question is, does it work? If there is no alternative that actually does work the next question is a cultural one. Will people be willing to accept an increase in the difficulty of the climbs they have been doing? In the Gunks my feeling at the time was, Yes. If Tom had not come out so quickly with stoppers, my perception might have seen a practical test. We were actively preparing to face a reduction in what we could climb. Remember in the Gunks, retreat does not involve thirty rappels and the people there enjoyed a central gathering area that unified us as a group. By the end of the first season the area no longer sounded like an iron works. It was changing and changing dramatically.
Two parts of today's climbing are in flux. First we are getting new people coming in via various commercial activities and they are arriving with views of the activity very unlike that which obtained in the past. The second part is the substantial increase in volunteer work in support of the areas. The recent revegetation project in JTNP seemed to me to hold out a possible solution. We had new people being joined with longer term climbers. That kind of mixing is exactly what has helped us in the past.
Willie Crowther took the time to mentor me and I learned he had long had the practice of picking up trash at the cliff. His road became my road.
Each of us has impacts upon others at which we may only guess. Those impacts live long and travel far.
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Lightenin'
climber
Muleshoeville
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Two parts of today's climbing are in flux. First we are getting new people coming in via various commercial activities and they are arriving with views of the activity very unlike that which obtained in the past. The second part is the substantial increase in volunteer work in support of the areas. The recent revegetation project in JTNP seemed to me to hold out a possible solution. We had new people being joined with longer term climbers. That kind of mixing is exactly what has helped us in the past.
Willie Crowther took the time to mentor me and I learned he had long had the practice of picking up trash at the cliff. His road became my road.
Each of us has impacts upon others at which we may only guess. Those impacts live long and travel far.
Insightful comments. Thanks for making me think.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Per what Roger was saying, I never thought of the Stonemasters as some select group of elite folk, rather it was a kind of adventure based on the ground-up, on-sight values established by those who came before us - the actual pioneers.
In that sense, we Stonemasters never invented or created an ethic, only a loosely defined culture where adventure could flourish. I never thought for a second that I had any kind of exclusive on Stonemaster shite, which belonged to anyone cherishing the raw fandango.
So Sonny Trotter has every right to call his gig the Stonemaster whatever and I'm pleased that he's carrying on the torch. When I hear of folks placing bolts next to cracks for convenience, I see that torch getting jammed in the crapper. I don't believe in the "glory days," or in the past per se, but the Stonemasters, if it ever meant anything, must find modern expression or the fandango dies.
JL
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Glad you posted that JL. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I think this is what Marty V. is referring to when he claimed to be a stonemaster. He put it up the routes in an old skool, bold style, not just finding the easy way out and placing bolts so he could feel safe.
It seams some on here want to rip up Marty about claiming to be a "Stonemaster". It sounded like chest thumping at first to me, but if you put it into the context of the whole post I can see what he is saying.
Stonemaster in the sense that he followed the example of the climbing pioneers.
Just my 2 cents. Haven't been climbing nearly as long as some of you on here, but I read as much about the climbing as I can.
It appears that some of us think there "is" a select group of elite climbers and they are the real "Stonemasters"
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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John and Kevin, what is Valhalla? I thought it was some place in Asgard, the Norse Asgard not to be confused with Baffin Island's. And remember in order to get to Valhalla, you have to die in combat, or die on a lead. Of course it might just be easier to take Highway 243 to get there and skip Odin and the Valkyrie. ;-)
I have always wanted to climb at Tahquitz/Suicide, perhaps I will someday. If I lead Valhalla, can I call myself...
Oh forget it. I digress. Here in Ireland bolting is not the done thing, so retrobolting doesn't come into play. And yes, I have climbed in a couple of gyms where some people can 'lead' the hardest 'climbs' (plastic), but get them out onto a VS on real rock and they shake and shiver (of course it could be the weather. Darn cold today for May, but hey we're on the edge of the Atlantic).
I haven't placed many bolts in my life, as I have hardly done any FAs, did some bolting on Mt Diablo but that was BITD and some face climbs on/off Highway 108.
My philosophy is, if the FA team didn't bolt a climb, then it should be left up to them, re: retrobolting. I know in some instances it may be called for (i.e. manky old bolts) but next to a crack? I mean, come on, though I hope I am not sounding like a judge.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Per what Roger was saying, I never thought of the Stonemasters as some select group of elite folk, rather it was a kind of adventure based on the ground-up, on-sight values established by those who came before us - the actual pioneers.
I think your memory may be mistaken, as I believe it was in one of your books that I first saw the definition as leading Valahalla. Or maybe my memory is mistaken, in which case I apologize. I can try to find the reference if anyone actually cares, but I'm pointing this out because I think there is some twisting of definitions going on here.
On the Sonnie Trotter thing: anyone considered that maybe he's never heard of (or at least given any real thought about) the great stone masters, and it's just a coincidence?
Edit: "I have always wanted to climb at Tahquitz/Suicide, perhaps I will someday. If I lead Valhalla, can I call myself..."
Not unless you do it in authentic period footwear. Modern shoes = doesn't count.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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BlahBlah, I got rid of my blue Robbins years ago. I wonder if I could find a pair somewhere.
Does Valhalla have a lot of edging? Robbins were good for that, Shoenards better. Back in 1996 I loaned my pair of Shoenards to a Canadian (BC) gal (Heather was her name) here in Ireland, I never got them back.
Perhaps the new generation thinks that Volunteers (by the Airplane at Woodstock) took some of the lyrics literally, i.e. "It's a new dawn".
Perhaps they should listen to Grace on Saturday Afternoon/Won't You Try or Paul Butterfield's Everything's Gonna Be Alright from Woodstock. I met Butterfield once (helping to accompany him to a concert at DVC in Pleasant Hill from his hotel in SF). Damn fine bluesman. I was 14 and chuffed that I met somebody who played at Woodstock.
But again, I digress.
Pissing down as usual, so Dalkey Quarry is out.
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Lightenin'
climber
Muleshoeville
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Back in 1996 I loaned my pair of Shoenards to a Canadian (BC) gal (Heather was her name) here in Ireland, I never got them back.
Honestly, what did you expect when you lent your shoes to someone named Heather? Did she have big feet?
BTW, I liked those shoes, too. Great edgers.
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I am
Trad climber
San Diego, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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I see that some of God's children are not playing well with others here still.
And please let me know if my paragraph formating is ok now or offer the advice so that I can start doing it in a way that will make you happy so I can turn off the cry baby meter.
Let's try to once again stay focused on what's really important here.
I'm tire of taking time out of my life removing retro-bolts to my 1st ascents and want this to stop now and forever as I do not do this to others. - end of conversation!!!
That said, here's some new food for thought:
1-I have a copy of the Stone Master book and no, my name is not in it so save your time looking for it.
2-the Stone Masters are not a secret society and when did this ever end?
3-we should continue the club by making a list to choose let's say 3 climbs on the list, from areas thruout the world so that climbers can go for it close to home and then get our merit badges.
4-there should also be a Sports Master club doing likewise.
5-and if you got both merit badges your bragging rights would double.
6-most people never heard of me before as I, like Peter Croft, have climbed without the need for a fan club, but rather as quietly as possible for the shear love of climbing only.
7-I will be posting my topos of the 3 areas I've noted very soon for all to be able to utilize should you wish to.
8-then you will be able to see much of the 1st ascents I've put up but that will not be the complete list.
9-also, do I need to provide a list of all the climbs I've put up and of all the climbs I've climbed of other peoples 1st ascents for review and approval?
10-just learn to love your neighbor as you love yourself, try it out, you may like it after-all.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Clean climbing caught on with me because I didn't want to make scars.
For all the convenience, there were plenty of times you went with crap
protection where a piton would have been good.
I'm glad I didn't have to follow the pitches that I led with pins. They
must have been hell to clean.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Good post Warbler.
Signed,
Original Stonemaster
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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"In my mind it was in fact a select group that represented a snapshot of an era" Stich
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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I can see your point Hankster.
I've thought about ths a little more and agree with everything that Marty is saying about the retrobolting, but the "original" thing is mis-leading.
Updating the definition of what a stonemaster is, can be, or should be considered nowdays could take up another never ending thread. Whether the meaning should even be updated could take up another thread I'm sure.
When I put more though into it I realized,if someone were to ask me what I thought about the "original stonemasters" or even just "stonemasters"I would think they are refering to the likes of Bachar, Kauk, etc..
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SicMic
climber
across the street from Marshall, CO
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Morgan Fairchild
... and my sister Morgan Fairchild (who I've seen naked). Yeah, I used to wash her back in the bathtub.
Bolting next to cracks = bad; jacking someone's FA = bad; being an "Original" = priceless.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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I have been following this thread with a some bemusement. But not any shock: this has been played out time and time again, all across this weird 1st World nation.
But I am only responding because of what happened this weekend:
My friend came by to borrow my drill. He has been climbing extensively at [a popular Tahoe crag] for close to a decade, and know the area pretty well. He had found a line that looked like it would go: discontinuous cracks, but filthy with lichen and schmutz.
Drill in hand, plus brushes, plus some enthusiasm, he headed up the route, cleaning as he went, with the ultimate intention of throwing in a bolt, if it so needed it.
And you know what? Hidden in the aforementioned filth, he found an old pin. Oh well, someone way back when climbed this thing. No bolts. And now it's clean.
San Diego crags are not my home area --I've never climbed down there-- so it's possible that the local aesthetic has its own vagaries. But if these shenanigans unbuckle your swash, chop the bolts, fill 'em in clean, and communicate your reasons for doing so.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Largo waxed, "cherishing the raw fandango". That's a great route name. I'm not worthy to use it...
This was a funny exchange:
Local Ben giving Sonnie grief for crack climbing while wearing tape gloves. If you look at the back of his left hand...has a pretty good goby under that tape healing from crack climbing. Funny.
Sonnie signs Ben's poster, "tape is for pussies".
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Elite Climbers...who dey is? Some sponsored peeps? The folks who have the time to cimb all the time? Valhalla? Isn't that a special place?
Stone Masters really says it all. This thread is a long hook.
Sticky rubber really lets a lot of folks in. Not me.
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