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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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Ya'll are so mean to poor old El Camino. Sure, really only one pitch, but a nice pitch.
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mpandy
Trad climber
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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As I mentioned, the MP algorithm uses pageviews as one of the metrics... and I suspect Piasano Overhang is in there because it gets "surfed" for the novelty factor due to the photos.
Unfortunately, it is an algorithm and thus isn't perfect... but it is pretty good - particularly in the popular 5.8 to 5.11- range.
It needs to be an algorithm because there are 20,000 unique "areas" on MP and the lists must obviously to be computer generated for our personal sanity :)
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:15am PT
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I think the MP list is fine for something algorithm generated. I don't really see a problem with that, in fact it's fairly decent.
Per the MP list: The more people that actually take the time to rate/star/comment on a route the better. There's stacks of routes I've done there that I haven't commented on. In spite of having personally entered a good share of the Suicide routes. People need to enter the routes in the first place, then people need to do the routes and comment on them. The tricky one though would be the surfing aspect. Agreed that some routes probably get hits just due to ratings/reputation/pictures alone, with many of those hits having no intent behind them. That's the metric that I think could skew the results a bit.
Still, MP seems to do a decent job. I do like MP in terms of a route database, quite a bit of useful stuff there. Thanks.
I don't know that I even have a fixed top 10/20 Idyllwild list. Enough good routes there that it doesn't seem like there's even a personal definitive list possible.
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Apr 12, 2012 - 02:51am PT
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I've been on 8 of the 20. Can't wait to get some more done there-Open Book is calling. Finishing Consolation needs to happen sometime.
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mpandy
Trad climber
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Apr 12, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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@Henny,
The reason we include page views in the algorithm is it typically is an excellent measure of a route's popularity either because the route is popular OR revered. We intentionally wanted to include revered routes.... an example of one might be EBGBs. How many times does it actually get climbed? It certainly sees some takers, but not that many. But lots of people browse the profile and hope, and most would certainly consider it a classic route... at least in the Echo area.
We also use comments, ratings, ticks, etc... we put it all in a big pot, throw in some top secret ingredients, and voila --- the lists!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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Another great route rarely done is Sugar Magnolia. And what about Pinhead.
And that route Henny did next to Question of Balance. I ain't leading that one.
And the last pitch of Ishi is all time. If it had a 10a approach it'd be one of the best routes at Suicide. Also, Iron Cross is a true classic with varied techniques required.
JL
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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So catch me up here dudes...what I called the last pitch of Quiet Desperation, you guys are calling the last pitch of Ishi. And I know Ishi finishes on that pitch as well, but wasn't QD (and thus that pitch)established before Ishi?
Also, do say, The Flakes, or the Bat Crack->Crucifix->Field of Dreams linkup belong on that list?
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
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Per the Sunshine flake pitch. QD was done in 76, Ishi free in 85. Based on that yeah, QD is prior. But the real question would be when did Zeek do the FA of Ishi as an aid line. I don't know a date for that ascent - Randy, Bob, anybody?
Ishi as an aid line was around for a long time before anyone got motivated enough to seriously try freeing it. Long enough that I would say it predated QD.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Those knucklehead guidebook authors could have prevented this kind of thing by just dating Zeeks aid ascent.
Edit: Yeah, the Iron Cross is good. Did it for the first time recently since I can't remember when. I'd forgotten just how good it really is.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Ah, well it makes sense with that context.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
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I heard Paisano was originally called the Newf_Proof_Roof....
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apogee
climber
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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I think Fingertip Traverse is the best 30' of 5.3 on the planet.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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I just sent an email to Lee Harrell.
Hopefully he will join us!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
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"The Paisano Overhang is one of the worst Routes, a double overhanging roof of the worst possible offwidth"
The size is a big part of what makes it so good. Just cause you're light doesn't make it a bad route Doc ;^)
Chalking up for the crux (and yes, my face is 4 shades of red from the exertion):
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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Shouldn't it be a list of routes through the rating spectrum, easiest to hardest? That seems like a good trade off so everyone can get something out of it.
Per Keith's pictures/comments: Le Toit free in '67 would have been downright hardcore, in particular with the days footwear. And yeah, that original group of Stonemasters picked a whole bunch of plums, leaving the rest of us to scratch around for crumbs. Fortunately they overlooked a few.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
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I bet more people have freed it (P.O.) than you think, especially since the advent of large cams that take the "R" out of the equation, but yeah there won't be any lines up there.
It's not the difficulty that makes it great (although it helps), it's the position, exposure, and unique technical climbing. Just don't get your foot stuck!
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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19 routes (if you count aiding the pirate and hanging all over Green Arch) Never had the OW skills to even try Paisano overhang.
The list brings back a few old memories for me as I am sure it does for many here, unfortunatley haven’t climbed there in over 20 years;
Mass climber late afternoon free solo of white Maiden’s walkway
Trail races down the Taquitz descent with spectacular crash and burns (nice to have young knees).
Sundance: did this route with Russ, we ditched high school, I had climbed a little and convinced him to go even though he only had running shoes and he was just learning to climb. Because his shoes were slipping all over the place, Russ had to follow the pitches by hand over handing the rope between bolts if he couldn’t make the moves. Luckily we didn’t end up as a report in Accidents in North American Mountaineering.
Whodunit should be on anyone’s classic climbs in North America list, IMO.
What a great place to climb, something on the weeping wall should be on the list and always thought Y-crack was a great route even though it is only one pitch.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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"It's not the difficulty that makes it great (although it helps), it's the position, exposure, and unique technical climbing."
That is (sorta) exactly the reason why Fingertip Traverse deserves a place on the low end of this list. Seriously.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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There won't be lines on any of the hardest routes up there. There never is.
That kind of climbing in general isn't attractive to a lot of people nowadays. So saying a hard route isn't good because it doesn't get done much, well, then there probably aren't any good hard routes there at all.
Past that, debating which belong in the list is part of the fun and everybody has their take on it. IMO, some of the very best also just happen to be the hardest. And if more people would just get on those routes they'd have no choice but to see it my way - ha.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
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All but Green Arch, Paisano and The Pirate (I did it as an aid climb.) Seems like a million years ago now.I'd likely see blue stars on anything over 5.10a. Who Done It gets my vote for all time classic. Long, varied, with enough air to keep you thinking.
TY
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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Hell, you gotta leave the Paisano on there just because any list of classic climbs should have at least one that's going to flake out the chaff, cut the fluff, and separate the men from the boys. reference: Hummingbird Ridge
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