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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Mar 22, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
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Yep, the taco agrees on two things- North Dakota sucks and you should not be able gun people down for no reason.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 22, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
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I believe in Draw first....
If you feel threatened, you should be able to draw and hold them for a LEO to come. Obviously if they pull something on you or keep coming at you or your property or persons, then you use force. If they run, well, still call a LEO or get the heck out of there.
It's all circumstantial of course. I honestly think Zimmerman knew what he was doing when he called the cops. I was another way in his mind of justification. He should be charged with 1st degree murder. It was premeditated as soon as he called. Why else would he have continued if the cop told him to stop following him?
I don't believe everyone should be able to own a gun, or carry one. There's nothing practical you can really do about it... But if I know dangerous people out there are carrying, i'd feel much better carrying.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Mar 22, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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LOL Ron, the Florida law is way different from most states that do not have a 'stand your ground' law like California. In CA if you have an alternative to deadly force, like not stalking your victim as Zimmerman did, you are required to use it.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 22, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
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"Officer, all I had was my phone, and my wasr-4. I was on the phone with you guys while the guy was coming into my window with his pistol first."
This whole racial debate is pissing me off more than the law. Who cares what the guy's race is? Oh, he's white. It must be racist. NO! He's Mexican, Mexicans aren't racist!
Does anyone know where the young kid was shot on the body? Chest? Back? Head?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
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Ron, you are a sick man. And I am a gun owner and former IPSC shooter.
There is a HUGE difference between a precieved threat and an actual threat. Any paranoid wanna be gunfighter can precieve a threat from just about anyone. If there is an actual iminenet threat as in the perp has both the intention and the MEANS to snuff you I am all for giveing the perp a dirt nap. Shooting people just because you are afraid of them is pathetic.
You pop someone because you are a pussy with an itchy trigger finger and that gun turns out to be a cell phone you deserve to do serious long term hard time.
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Gene
climber
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Mar 22, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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In 2005, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest with violence. State alcohol agents said Zimmerman pushed them while they were arresting a friend of his during an underage drinking operation at a bar. Zimmerman avoided a conviction by going into a pretrial program that is offered to people with no prior arrests. http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/246445/19/George-Zimmerman-shooter-in-Trayvon-Martin-case
This guy had a concealed carry permit? Habitual 911 caller? Packing heat as a Neighborhood Watch guy?
He sounds like a guy who might feel his life was threatened by his own shadow. Told not to follow Trayvon but did anyway? Whacked the kid. Something is very wrong here. The FL law, the concealed carry permit, the whatever…
Now, what did Trayvon do to merit his early demise? Remind me.
Sheesh!
g
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 22, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
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Actually TMC, there is an important element of the law most non-attorneys ignore.
To commit a "crime" the perpetrator must have criminal intent.
If Ron is downtown and a teenager flashes what turns out to be an airsoft gun tucked in his pants.
Ron perceives a threat, verbal or physical.
Shoots the stupid kid.
He hasn't committed a crime because there was no mens rea (criminal intent).
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Mar 22, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
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Ron, you are a sick man. And I am a gun owner and former IPSC shooter.
There is a HUGE difference between a precieved threat and an actual threat. Any paranoid wanna be gunfighter can precieve a threat from just about anyone. If there is an actual iminenet threat as in the perp has both the intention and the MEANS to snuff you I am all for giveing the perp a dirt nap. Shooting people just because you are afraid of them is pathetic.
You pop someone because you are a pussy with an itchy trigger finger and that gun turns out to be a cell phone you deserve to do serious long term hard time.
I read the law and don't see the problem with it. It only applies when the person claiming the benefit of it "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
Deciding what's "reasonable" is a huge part of lots of legal concepts and generally comes down to a jury decision (or a judge decision if the judge decides that a "reasonable" (there's that word again) jury could only see the facts one way. (But a judge cannot enter a conviction in a criminal case, no matter what the facts are.)
It's possible I'm overlooking something and the law is as bad as you all say, but it seems to me that the problem isn't with the law because most (or all) of us don't think what the shooter did was "reasonable," and so the law shouldn't even apply.
As an aside, if ElCap thinks the law means you can't successfully bring a wrongful death action if criminal charges aren't brought (or aren't successful), I believe he's mistaken.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
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I have been reading every news story that pops up on yahoo the last few days concerning this issue and there are numerous refrences to AG,s and LEO's saying that they can not prosecute many of the bad shootings simply because the shooter has all the cards stacked in his favor.. the justifiable homicide rate has trippled since the enactment of the law.
Most people will probobly accept that pointing a fake gun at someone during an altrication is a good way to get a dirt nap... when that threat turns out to be imaginary in the form of a bag of skittles or a cell phone then you do need to be held accountable for your actions INMOP..
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 22, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
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Give him life in jail with no possibility of parole. How the f*ck do you mix up a cup of tea and bag of skittles for anything other than those? Zimmerman could plead insanity, for whatever liberalistic bullshit reason, but he should still get life in prison nonetheless.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
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Ron, all the pros are saying the FL law is full of loopholes that let bad shooters off the hook. They are saying that the FL law gives the armed citizen much less restrictions than even law enforecement. That is bad juju INMOP.
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laughingman
Mountain climber
Seattle WA
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Mar 22, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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This tragility cements my theory it is impossible to be young Africa American Male and walk down the street safely in many towns in america without being labeled a threat.
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Gene
climber
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Mar 22, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
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BYOB - Black Youth Out of Bounds.
So sad.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Mar 22, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
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I'd say this law is not working out.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Mar 22, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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Well I don't want to be on the wrong side of a lawful gun owner who makes a mistake. & it happens a lot.
And as in Florida this case was not look into properly!!!!
As many aren't.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Mar 23, 2012 - 12:19am PT
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zimmerman is a wack job. he called 911 forty six consecutive times claiming he was in danger.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 23, 2012 - 01:09am PT
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Does anyone know where the young kid was shot on the body? Chest? Back? Head?
Chest.
As for the racism angle, CNN did a clean up of the 911 audio and it's pretty clear that the shooter says "these f*#king coons, they always get away" during the call. Unless you believe the man was suddenly confronted by a family of racoons fleeing up a palm tree, I don't see any compelling reason to believe that race wasn't an issue.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2012 - 08:49am PT
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The law, approved under former Governor Jeb Bush after a big push by pro-gun advocates led by the National Rifle Association, was passed over numerous objections from the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association and state law enforcement officials. Florida's Republican governor, Rick Scott, announced the formation of a task force on Thursday to "thoroughly review" the law in the wake of the Martin shooting.
"Basically it's a law that fixed something that wasn't broken, and then it created a lot of problems," said William "Willie" Meggs, veteran state attorney for the 2nd Judicial Circuit in Tallahassee, the Florida capital.
Republican State Representative Dennis Baxley, one of the authors of the Stand Your Ground law, said it did not protect people who pursued and confronted their victims, as occurred in Sanford, according to lawyers for the parents of the dead teenager.
"That's where he (Zimmerman) stepped out on thin ice away from protection of this statute," he said.
Defending Stand Your Ground, Baxley said that while errors may occur, such as the death of Martin, it was important that the law err on the side of those who fear they are facing "a perceived" threat.
"That's good public policy. I think we have a good statute and I would hate to lose anything in it that protects people from harm. It saves lives," Baxley added. End quote.
This line is what really gets under my skin!
"it was important that the law err on the side of those who fear they are facing "a perceived" threat."
Really! those who fear they are faceing a precieved threat? what a bunch of trigger happy repuglican pansy assed whimps! heck I have stood down and diffused REAL threats, Not PRECIEVED threats without ever haveing to seriously hurt anyone. These tools are simply looking for an excuse to shoot someone.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Mar 23, 2012 - 09:41am PT
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As an individual who works as a trial lawyer, I am highly dubious of any recording (or photograph) that has been "cleaned up"--as there is no real distinction between "cleaning up" and "manipulating". So while, Zimmerman may well have said those words--and probably did--I still can't put too much weight on them for legal purposes. However, in this case, we really don't have to, as Zimmerman's other words and actions clearly show that this was a racially-motivated intentional murder. In his first 911 that evening, he specifically, and unnecessarily mentions Mr. Martin's race, and describes that factor as being one of the reasons that he is suspicious of him. That is followed by his total disregard of the dispatcher's instructions not to follow Mr. Martin. But most disturbing of all is the part of the last call before the fatal confrontation that doesn't require any enhancing. His tone, his staccato way of speaking, and his noticeable breathing are all indicative of someone on the hunt and about to move in for the kill---extremely chilling.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 23, 2012 - 10:16am PT
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there is no real distinction between "cleaning up" and "manipulating"
While I agree with you that it's not likely to make it in as evidence, I disagree with the above quote. There is a very clear distinction. Using simple band pass filters outside the frequency of the human voice to filter out line noise/static/etc is in no way "manipulation".
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