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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Tree-saving wolves?
What will the East Coast Enviros think up next for the furry friends?
I am glad that wolves are AGAIN being hunted--and Montana leads the way !!!!1111
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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To what? Repetitive drivel? Rox, are you implying you are saying something? How many years has it been since you said something new?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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There is no nature, personified you say Rocjox ? You are a moron, because actually there is, and we are all part of it. What you do to nature, you do to yourself. and the bill is coming due very shortly, unfortunately for our kids.
Whatever happened to cowboys and night watchmen and shepherds that watched over the herds? Better to just kill off all the wildlife so that we don't need to employ anyone for those positions anymore, that is obviously the popular opinon now. It is all about the almighty dollar, don't kid yourself.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Of course it's doubtful that the latter would tolerate wolves raiding their horse herds."
You'll have to go back a little further to be legit Jan. Horses, in the modern sense of course, are just another species introduced by Europeans.
I'm not anti-rancher, but somehow I didn't see you as being anti-wolf either.
Special place in hell for the govt and environmentalists? Wow, just wow.
They will be in good company with ranchers grazing their subsidized herds on federal land, rich hunters and industrialists. Who as we know have done an outstanding job of stewarding the environment.
I agree with whoever said it's all just part of modern humanity's war on Earth.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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When most people have to fart, they do so, but Rockjox instead types on the keyboard. But it still smells the same.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Stinkeye-
I've had verified wolf kills on my ranch, and never received a fukking dime in compensation. In springtime of 2010, there were 2 black wolves sighted near my ranch; I lost 2 newborn calves. My neighbor lost 2 $10,000 horses, and had 7 others injured with very expensive vet bills.
Hunting is a real big deal in the Rocky Mountain states, and the Gros Ventre elk herd (near Dubois, WY.) has just about been wiped out by wolves. Hunting for Wyoming, is a sort of tourism, so to speak. I allow deer, elk, and antelope hunting on my ranch, and count the revenue as part of the annual "ranch income."
So...I'm directly impacted by these environmental nightmares from Hell.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Survival--
Maybe one of the reasons I'm not rich is I don't have any "subsidized use of Federal land" for my place. Everything I have is deeded acreage, and I'm also responsible for property taxes on the raw grazing land. Still...I support about 60-90 deer year around, 50+ wild turkeys, pronghorn antelope seasonally, and in snowy conditions as many as 650 elk. This is at "my own expense," since I'm not compensated by either the state or the Feds for their grazing, use of water from my solarized well, or damage done to fences.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Nice post BDC. My hat is off to you supporting your animals and wildlife on private land. I take no special disagreement with you.
You are obviously not in the same situation as some of the ranchers I have read about over the years.
Yes, you should be compensated for your livestock on any verified wolf kills.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I really don't support the introduction of a non-native species, such as the Canadian Pack Wolves into an ecosystem where they have never been before. This "experiment" has been a disaster, for many folks DO depend on ranching in order to make a living. There are many ranchers who supplement their incomes by guided hunting, and they have been severely impacted. The depletion of our moose and elk populations have been terrible. I for one, would much rather put up with having to repair my fences from elk damage than clean up the remains of a calf (a single calf a year per cow, and part of the "food chain" for city dwellers).
Basically, I think the deal that was originally made w/r ranching and "goals" for populations has been abrogated by the Feds.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Cows are non native, and they are not apart of my food chain.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I really don't support the introduction of a non-native species
A great post, followed by one not so great.
Cows
Numerous "game" species
Horses
Too many food sources to list.
All livestock except the llama, American Bison and the turkey are non-native species to North America. Collectively, non-native crops and livestock comprise 98% of US food.
Wolves certainly fit in the world as much as our preconceived notion of "good" vs "bad"
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Rodger, is part of the problem with the compensation program that you have to prove that a domestic animal was killed by wolves, and that can be a challenge? For example, coyotes, cougars and bears may well also kill a domestic animal, and without catching a creature in the act, it's hard to know which did it. Likewise, range animals do sometimes just die of natural causes or by accident, and then the carcasses just get eaten by whatever animal happens along.
Does the chart that someone posted a while back, showing that wolves kill about 350 domestic animals in Wyoming each year, only refer to proven kills, as opposed to claimed kills, or those where there's uncertainty? Even given the emotional propensity of some to exaggerate their claims, 350 seems a rather low number. Ferocious giant Canadian wolves - if they even exist - should do better than that.
Once a domestic animal has been shown to have been killed by a wolf, is the compensation fair, and is there a reasonable process for determining the amount?
Lastly, whatever the supposed depredations of the wolves, what are the actual numbers of the various sorts of their wildlife prey, before and after? Sheep, antelopes, deer, elk, moose and so on? Either in study areas, or more broadly? How many of each are legally hunted or killed by accident each year, and how many poached? Based on reasonably objective scientific data, that is. Not that prey species numbers necessarily should be maintained at an environmentally unsustainable level, but it would be a useful measure. If studies indicate that there has been no significant change in prey species numbers, apart from normal fluctuations, or that hunters aren't killing any fewer per hunter day, it would be helpful to know.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Was it really God, or just your opinion?
Are you really a dick, or just my opinion?
I'm serious.
Edit: For RokHead
It's in here somewhere. Feel free.
^ Dov Sax, Aug 2008, article published in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
^ a b Carlton, James T. 2002. Introduced Species in U.S. Coastal Waters. Pew Oceans MArk RUles BitchezCommission.
^ U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Mid-Atlantic Integrated Assessment. September 16, 2003. Introduced species. Web site at US EPA
^ http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ddi/2000/00000006/00000002/art00003= Richardson et al. 2000
^ http://www.iucn.org/themes/ssc/publications/policy/invasivesEng.htm#anchor392619= biodiversity
^ http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/j.1366-9516.2004.00061.x/pdf= Colautti and MacIsaac 2004
^ CEQ (1999). Web site page with Executive Order 13112 text.
^ Naylor, R.L., S.L. Williams, and D.R. Strong. 2001. Aquaculture—a gateway for exotic species. Science 294: 1655-56.
^ Riley, SPD, H.B. Shaffer, S.R. Voss, B.M. Fitzpatrick. Hybridization between a rare, native tiger salamander and its introduced congener. 2003. Ecological Applications 13: 1263–1275.
^ Foster, J. and A. Sandberg. Friends or foe? Invasive species and public green space in Toronto. 2004. The Geographical Review 94: 178-198.
^ Deichsel, G. & Gist, D. H. On the Origin of the Common Wall Lizards Podarcis muralis (Reptilia: Lacertidae) in Cincinnati, Ohio
^ Shirey, P.D. and G.A. Lamberti. 2010. Assisted colonization under the U.S. Endangered Species Act. Conservation Letters 3(1): 45-52.
^ Moritz, Craig. 1999. Conservation units and translocations: Strategies for conserving evolutionary processes. Hereditas 130: 217-228.
^ David Pimentel, Lori Lach, Rodolfo Zuniga, and Doug Morrison, Environmental and Economic Costs Associated with Non-Indigenous Species in the United States, College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, Cornell University (Ithaca, New York), June 12, 1999.
^ Corn; Tim Johnson, "Invasive Species," The Burlington Free Press, November 9, 2003
^ Cohen, A.N. And J.T. Carlton. 1998. Accelerating invasion rate in a highly invaded estuary. Science 279: 555-558.
^ Hybridization and Introgression; Extinctions; from "The evolutionary impact of invasive species; by H. A. Mooney and E. E. Cleland" Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2001 May 8; 98(10): 5446–5451. doi: 10.1073/pnas.091093398. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, v.98(10); May 8, 2001, The National Academy of Sciences
^ C. Michael Hogan. 2010. Alien species topic ed. Mark Mcginley; ed-in-chief Cutler Cleveland, National Council of Science and the Environment, Washington DC
^ Glossary: definitions from the following publication: Aubry, C., R. Shoal and V. Erickson. 2005. Grass cultivars: their origins, development, and use on national forests and grasslands in the Pacific Northwest. USDA Forest Service. 44 pages, plus appendices.; Native Seed Network (NSN), Institute for Applied Ecology, 563 SW Jefferson Ave, Corvallis, OR 97333, USA
^ EXTINCTION BY HYBRIDIZATION AND INTROGRESSION; by Judith M. Rhymer , Department of Wildlife Ecology, University of Maine, Orono, Maine 04469, USA; and Daniel Simberloff, Department of Biological Science, Florida State University, Tallahassee, Florida 32306, USA; Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics, November 1996, Vol. 27, Pages 83-109 (doi: 10.1146/annurev.ecolsys.27.1.83), [1]
^ Genetic Pollution from Farm Forestry using eucalypt species and hybrids; A report for the RIRDC/L&WA/FWPRDC; Joint Venture Agroforestry Program; by Brad M. Potts, Robert C. Barbour, Andrew B. Hingston; September 2001; RIRDC Publication No 01/114; RIRDC Project No CPF - 3A; ISBN 0 642 58336 6; ISSN 1440-6845; Australian Government, Rural Industrial Research and Development Corporation
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Its how kids finally get out of school, its how doddering old men get grants, its how up and coming nobodies get recognition. Which one was that one?
My guess is that you're in the doddering up and coming nobody clawing for recognition category.
I know this is news to you, but you are not the only person in this world or this forum that has a brain or an opinion.
It's not just the opinion that rankles, it's your smug bastard holier than thou that drives people mad.
Oh yes, Lance is the only person on the planet that can really see clearly.
Did I read? Of course I read. At least I cited an actual source, which you never do. You just spout a never ending stream of hateful opinion directed at anything that disagrees with your precious view. Especially if it comes from California.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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It seems that reintroducing or hunting wolves is just a logical extension of maintaining a garden in your back yard with the species you prefer to keep around in the numbers and arrangement you prefer, versus the wild weeds that would be there without your intervention or as a consequence of your partial intervention.
Humans do play God with the natural world, and it is up to us to decide how we will tend this global garden.
In predator/prey population dynamics, as long as the populations start out within some basin of attraction, they tend toward an equilibrium where the predator population remains at an appropriate size to cull the prey populations. In other words, predator population doesn't grow too big because it eats all the food and is naturally limited until the prey population rebounds.
An aside about hunting vs. natural predators.... Non-human predators will more often cull out the sick and weak than the strong prey, so the prey population over time will have a more vigorous gene pool. Human hunters probably like bigger animals with bigger antlers, so the stronger animals are removed from the population and drive the population toward the shallower end of the gene pool.
Read up on the Moose/Wolf dynamics on Royal Island if you want to better understand predator/prey population dynamics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_and_moose_on_Isle_Royale
There a few problems from a human perspective:
 humans may not like the natural population equilibrium, e.g. preferring to see more deer etc.
humans have tampered with natural cycles for a long time, so we have to carefully consider what introduced population size of wolves would be within the basin of attraction to create a stable population cycle. We can model what this dynamic would look like, in terms of the population oscillations from the predator/prey factors as well as island biogeography effects (protected habitats and connecting corridors, which may be different for the predators and prey), etc.
humans maintain prey populations that they want to be "off limits" to wolves but there is no natural mechanism to prevent predators from going after these (shooting the offending animals is a retaliative rather than preventive action, and physical preventive barriers would be cost-prohibitive). Even if ranchers are reimbursed for their livestock losses, the predator populations might artificially inflate the predator populations compared to the carrying capacity based on the wild prey.
If the statistics of show wolf populations vs. livestock losses are accurate, then it appears the wolves naturally avoid the livestock (maybe because of rancher vigilance with guns, etc. and the wolves learn to avoid areas with fences? total guess here).
There are elements that are hard to quantify when measuring survival and minimum viable populations. What if those few livestock taken are a sort of last-resort refuge that keeps a wolf alive during a hard winter, long enough to get the next wild prey? That wolf would have died if the livestock were absent, but now it can breed and the wolf population is artificially elevated. Anyhoo, my laptop battery is dying and I've procrastinated long enough.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Environmentalists are not immune from making mistakes. Why should they be?
So the citizens of the Northwest are fixing the wolf problem.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Rox is back! Welcome back, didnt see ya around much prior to the holidays.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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while i am not as vociferous as rox, i still get a kick out of folks with an extinct bear on their flag lecturing idahoans and others! pretty damn funny.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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"In the mid-1990s, when the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service released 66 wolves in Yellowstone and central Idaho, most of the U.S. celebrated." and this;
"How far we have fallen since the mid-1990s, when we celebrated the wolves' reintroduction."
I don't recall any celebration at all, only many concerned citizens thinking that here we go again, government and poorly researched authorities playing god again, and we get to live with the mess, once again.
Without these two lines, or opinions of the author if you will, This article means nothing other than a poorly researched, stale, nonfactual pile of words with an agenda. The only accurate anything is the numbers and the states harvest quotas and takes.
I live in wolf country, and although there may be anti wolf folks, it is slanted to seem that all of us think "anti" or slaughter them all.
Biggest load of crap posted lately. The author should be ashamed of his work, or more correctly lack of it. Anyone buying this load of crap is probably misinformed on so many levels about so many things that they scare me more than any of the real problems this nation faces.
So many greener opinions with anger and disdain for something they see as an atrocity. All I can see from my perspective, and living with the beasts, is a bunch of misinformed people giving misinformed opinions. Not judging anyone, but come on, do you really, honestly buy the medias take on issues that are entirely out of their environment? Really?
Burly Bob
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