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apogee
climber
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Oct 26, 2011 - 12:58am PT
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That article is from February 1999...no telling where the research progressed from there.
Basically, they are using crotalid venom as a 'clot-busting' agent, similar to the more commonly used TPA in stroke patients. Like TPA, it seemed to exhibit some level of risk for bleeding elsewhere, so it would need to be used carefully. That is, assuming it ever made it past the research phase, and was commercially manufactured.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Oct 26, 2011 - 01:06am PT
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If you don't like snakes do not go to Sugarloaf on a hot day- you bascially have to skip from rock to rock, dodging striking rattlers the whole time. Totally safer being up on the routes.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 26, 2011 - 01:12am PT
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Apogee,
I didn't note the date, I bet it got shelved.
OK, gonna scan some Ruwenzori slides. Can you say GABON VIPER? WHOO-HOO!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2011 - 01:18am PT
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Apogee-
The major component in Crotalid venom that is involved is an enzyme; Phospholipase C. This hydrolyzes off a fatty acid chain from phosphatidyl ethanolamine or phosphatidyl choline in the cell membranes of erythrocytes (RBC's), yielding lysophosphatidyl ethanolamine or choline. This is a powerful detergent that then lyses the RBC. This disruption of the cellular membranes is responsible for the discoloration of the area surrounding the bite, as well as swelling. There are lots of other enzymes present in the venom, as well.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 26, 2011 - 01:42am PT
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I have been given TPA, it probably saved my life, or kept me from serious problems. It is weird sh#t. As it broke up the clot in my lung, it also broke up any other clots in my body, such as from needle sticks or bruises. When that happened the blood would create these golf ball to soft ball sized lumps on the site. In less then a minute they would appear and grow up to a softball size. The hospital was busy that night and they couldn't get me into a critical care room, so I was in a regular room with an RN checking on me regularly, but she was busy with another patient that was giving her worse problems, so I kept having to tie pressure bandages on myself. What a strange experience. The first one freaked me out, as they hadn't explained what would happen, but the nurse put pressure on it and it went down, so after that I mostly did them myself.
10 grand sticker shock though.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Happy Boulders
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Oct 26, 2011 - 01:43am PT
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been climbing in jtree for 32 years. have only seen one buzzworm
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apogee
climber
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Oct 26, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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"As it broke up the clot in my lung, it also broke up any other clots in my body, such as from needle sticks or bruises."
Yeah, that's the risk of TPA- it not only breaks up the bad clots (i.e. the ones in a stroke patient's cerebrovascular system), it breaks 'em up everywhere...thus, it can dislodge a clot anywhere else, resulting in all kinds of hell, from pulmonary embolus and beyond.
TPA is part of definitive care for stroke patients, and is incredibly effective- with a CVA, time=brain tissue. Still, there is a risk:benefit equation to it- some EMS systems have experimented with making it one of the drugs administered by ALS providers (base hospital directed) at the scene. Because of the associated risks, it hasn't become mainstream as yet.
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BruceAnderson
Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
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Oct 26, 2011 - 02:27am PT
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Stumbled on to a few dozen some years back on a walk out to the Love Nest. By the time I got to the base of the cliff they were literally everywhere I looked, and they were very fired up and active. I peaked back under the formation and there were dozens of them. I was out there alone and have to say it was one of the more frightening moments I've had.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Oct 26, 2011 - 09:27am PT
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10 grand sticker shock
this one came to 700:
http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/
i was told that no health insurance will cover it, but apparently this kid's experience was different. or the docs did a pro bono.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 26, 2011 - 10:47am PT
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I don't understand willful snake fear.
Maybe some folks are still a little sensitive to that incident with the apple...
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 26, 2011 - 11:02am PT
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If you are worried about rattlesnakes, hike with a stout hiking staff which you drive down onto the ground as you hike. The vibration alerts rattles you are coming, and if you do stumble on one, the staff is usually ahead of you so that they would hit it instead of your leg. It also is a defensive weapon from snakes, if they are to close you can use the staff to distract them while you back away. I also advise kicking rocks as you hike for added vibration and noise. Snakes don't want to be bothered, just like you, and it is usually only if you sneak up on them or surprise them that there is a problem. I have seen big rattlers at the base of El Cap, sometimes right on the trail, and once when we were starting Nutcracker a very large King snake came crusing right thru the middle of our threesome, and up the crack up the route before it disappeared, way up in the crack. Pretty wierd to climb it knowing there was a big snake hiding somewhere in the crack where you are sticking your hands!
When you are climbing, beware of topouts or ledges that could harbor snakes, they can climb, and so place gear before you crawl on them in case of a hasty evacuation, and make noise and be wary and alert as you get onto them. On more traveled routes snakes are usually not much of a problem since they are reclusive, but you never know..
Also the old matra of never stepping over a log, as there may be a snake on the other side is very very true. Several times I have come across a snake where you would step over something on a trail such as a boulder or log, and hidden on the other side in a recess was a rattler, be wary of hidden niches near your legs, or of blindly reaching into bushes. Mostly common sense but only if you have your rattler antenna up because its when you are not expecting them or not paying attention that you can get hit.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Oct 26, 2011 - 11:11am PT
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On thread: I love discussions about rattlesnakes!
Off thread (sort of): That little area of Mission Gorge has seen other bodies, too. I remember first smelling one (back around '78 or '80) that had been dumped in the bushes there by the person who'd picked the guy up, hitch-hiking. My recollection is that he'd had a heart attack in the guy's car, or something, and the driver kind of freaked about what to do with him. It was (if I recall correctly) between Pink Boulder and the road, and he'd been there for a little while, too. It's actually not unlikely that you could pass by someone just a few feet away in that area, and not see them.
Back on thread: I've seen the largest concentration of rattlers in the Spring in JT. They're pretty much all over the place (including Hidden Valley CG). If you just stay aware and observant, you should be good. Although, I have had one silently slither behind my feet as I was belaying. It was a Mojave, and once it got past me, it turned around, faced me, coiled up, and started rattling. I was like, "What?! Yer not the boss of me!" Apparently it got the message, because it slithered away without incident.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2011 - 11:15am PT
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Studly-
I'm essentially trying to plan a trip where I can simply reduce the probabilities of an encounter. I live in rattlesnake country, and encounter them in my daily work routine during the Summer months. I simply don't like them. Anyone who doesn't really have a fear of them and, as others hve posted here the bite histories, isn't playing with a full deck. I respect their capabilities, and none of us can at any specific time, judge their intentions.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 26, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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While you won't see many in cold weather, they can still be out and about. The upside is they're usually sunning and lethargic. I've seen them in January the last two seasons, twice off GeoTour and once near the Anasazi Wall.
Never been to the Love Nest precisely because the Vogel warns you. Sounds like from the above tale I've made the right choice.
About 3-4 years ago, a guy named Dean was walking down from Tahquitz or Suicide and got struck in the toe, probably by a baby. Didn't even know he'd been hit, thought he'd just stubbed his toe on a rock. Got very woozy near the car, started swelling, went to the hospital. Crazy tale, he told me about it in the gym. No permanent damage and he was climbing again about a month later.
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melon
Trad climber
Contrived description of location withheld
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Oct 26, 2011 - 11:47am PT
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I've seen a couple of rattlesnakes at Josh, not near popular crags, but back in the more remote parts of the Wonderland.
I find it curious that the OP mentions a rattlesnake encounter at the Short Wall. This is like the fourth time I've heard of people being surprised by rattlers at the Short Wall.
I believe it's a causal thing. Rattlesnakes are attracted to n00bs.
Apparently those three rattlers have been terrorizing climbers since at least this past april: http://mountainproject.com/v/107091886
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
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DMT-
I'm quite rational about this topic. I've known too many people who thought they "knew better." All it takes is ONCE.
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apogee
climber
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Oct 26, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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"All it takes is ONCE. "
bdc- remember that set of stats from the AAPCC re: reported snakebites & fatalities in the US during 2003? (See upthread a page or two.) About 1200 pit viper bites, and an average of 2 deaths per year.
That same year, according to NOAA, 43 persons were killed by lightning- those stats are broken out according to activity. Know what category had the greatest percentage of deaths? They define it as 'outside/open area', which is the category our interests tend to lie. (For the record, 'golf' is a relatively small percentage of the activities.)
Point is...you (& I, & most people in this forum) are faaaar more likely to die from lightning than from snakebite. Not saying it won't suck if it happens- it will be painful, and can be a scarring experience- but chances of dying are veeeerrrrryyyy small, and it's really not hard to mitigate the risk with some simple awareness. Go play & have fun.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 26, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
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Killer bees kill more people than rattlers.
Regular bees and wasps kill hundreds per year.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Oct 26, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
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You are talking about deaths. I am certain that those 99% who survived the experience are in no hurry to repeat it. Besides, one cannot do much about lightning strikes, while one can certainly do a lot to avoid a bite. The original concerns of Brokendownclimber are certainly justified and those who brush off his concern are just fools!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
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Talking about probabilities: my first wife (she was my ex by then) was killed by a lightning strike. In a parking lot in the mountains.
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