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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Sep 26, 2011 - 09:05am PT
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i think two bolts would keep with the charecter of the meadows.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Sep 26, 2011 - 10:48am PT
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Asking the Supertopo clan for an opinion on a a retro-bolt (especially in TM) is like asking a vegan for tips on a good steak house, you answers will VASTLY be skewed in a particular direction but you may get some more "worldy" people who can see beyond their own ideals.
Anyway, I'd take the opinions here with a certain grain of salt...
I think the well reasoned answer is that a retro of some sort is fine. The pitch is not a well established classes "runout" or even a moderately known one. It sounds as if nearly everyone bails on top of p2.
As you point out, your world view changes throughout life and what once made bold and stylistic sense (or illustrated a lack there of) now appears foolhardy or perhaps a lesser choice than it once was.
I agree 100% that the act of allowing retro-bolts is a VERY slippery slope. If someone were to suggest a retro of Nutcracker I'd be right with everyone protesting it vehemently. Using Nutcracker though(or the B-Y, or The Dike Route etc) is a bit of a misleading argument as it's sure to invoke the strongest of anti-retro bolting sentiments rather than evoking a well reasoned discussion on the matter.
I recognize that for some, retro-ing of ANY kind is tantamount to bolting cracks and a line that should never be crossed. I think this is a valid line for a reasonable number of routes. However, sticking to that line for EVERY ROUTE is myopic in the grand scheme of things. Times change, protection changes as do climbers (My boldness has ebbed with age, family responsibilities etc etc).
A climbing culture that cannot thoughtfully adapt to changing times while still recognizing its colorful and storied history is doomed to stagnate at some point. If climbers did not adapt to changing protection and ethics we'd still be pounding pins and NOT FALLING on hemp ropes.
An effort needs to be made in the climbing community to establish a well reasoned "ethic" for retro bolting. Without such a reasoned ethic in place you are left with continuous arguments by the differing factions and an endless, distasteful battle.
I've recently heard of an interesting style down here in TX where, in the past, they have "paired" routes with 2 neighboring lines having vastly different pro. They were once all R/X routes but certain ones were identified and retro'd to give you a bold and a "Safe" climb in the same vicinity. I believe the more "famous" of the routes was left as the bold one and the other received the retro. An interesting idea. That isn't to say you still don't have battles as a recent one ensued on an older 5.7R/X route. I think part of that issues is there was very little knowledge of the "pairing" concept and the history of retro's there by newer climbers to the area. That's KEY. Open and well documented information on the history of retro's etc.
I say bolt that last pitch and make sure you put a well reasoned "history" out there as a reference point to others. The first post is an excellent start.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 26, 2011 - 11:06am PT
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If someone were to suggest a retro of Nutcracker I'd be right with everyone protesting it vehemently.
I'd say Nutcracker is a poor example because there are NUT placements all the way up the thing.
On Super Chicken there is nothing out there for the leader who might be anywhere near his limit.
I agree with those who say there are plenty of test pieces in TM.
If the FA team said no, it needs to be a place where the 5.8 leader can have the sh#t scared out of him, fine, I'd support that.
(But 5.7 5.8 leaders have the sh#t scared out of them practically every time they climb.)
But that's not the case here. The FA guys who are intelligent, experienced well mannered guys are thinking that it would be nice to have their beautiful climb experienced by a few more folks, all the way to the top.
3-4 bolts is not going to ruin the climb or make a baby event out of it. There will still be plenty of spice there for the average human.
Should a 23 year old mother of two who is really wishing to stretch herself a little die for this tradition?
Should it be left blank so that guys as experienced and hard as Werner and Cragman have a place that they can be pure and excited?
Or should it be actually attainable for a 5.8 leader or the aging 5.10 climber with a family to come home to? (That's me) I've done a thousand routes in Yosemite and Tuolumne, I have no one to apologize to.
I have all the respect in the world for Werner, but I get tired of his one sentence wisdom, "if a knob breaks your number is up." Bullsh#t, if there's a bolt 20 feet under you, you might get to hug your kids that night.
Werner and the others don't want to die doing this stuff either. There's plenty of unbolted rock up there. Go free solo that if you want to get your purity on.
We're talking about tradition yes, and spice too, but don't forget there's life and death involved.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Sep 26, 2011 - 11:14am PT
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Don't drill it, leave it as a route or pitch for someone to aspire to. Hell, I'd love to do Bachar-Yerian but I'd be pissed as hell if it was bolted down to my level (and I wouldn't go do it)!
Don't forget, All route don't have to be for All people.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 26, 2011 - 11:19am PT
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Another 5.12 climber says no bolts.
Mark, we already know not all routes are for everyone.
BY has bolts on it. Every pitch.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Sep 26, 2011 - 11:27am PT
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Werner doesn't count as he is a genetic aberration.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Sep 26, 2011 - 11:35am PT
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You guys did whatever the heck you wanted on the FA. You can do whatever the heck you want to do now. The current ethic, or whatever it is called, is that you own the route. It's yours.
Unless of course you were insane or drunk or otherwise mentally incapacitated at the time of the climb. Nobody's going to follow the climbing ethics of a lunatic. Many people follow the climbing ethics of cowards but that doesn't seem to be the case then or now for this route.
Dave
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 26, 2011 - 11:42am PT
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If you bolt it.
It will become safe.
Then you will get hit by a bus down the road to compensate if your number is up ....
This post is for (survival) = (irony) ..... LOL
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 26, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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Werner is right. Adding just one bolt changes the nature of the climb and the consequences for better climbers can be disastrous. For example, the bolt added to the first pitch of West Crack has made the 5.9 move OK for the masses, and many parties now have to give up the climb because it is so crowded. The same thing can be said of the top pitches of South crack, where bolts have appeared, with the same consequences. Superchicken is not in the same class as South or West cracks, but we can see where the road leads. I can envision a future world where climbers will have to have reservations for a climb!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 26, 2011 - 11:52am PT
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West Crack always had that bolt, there is a great story of Sacherer breaking a knob on the FA attempt, landing on the ledge (and almost falling off it), hobbling back to the car, then getting a bolt kit from the Valley and coming back and placing the bolt.
There are zero pro bolts on South Crack. There was a single 1/4" that was off-route on the first slab pitch which I removed years ago. It is unlikely that the only bolted anchor up there is added, since it is 150 feet above the last pro and a long ways from any other pro.
On Super Chicken, the bolted belay at the top of the 3rd pitch was there in the 1983 Tuolumne guide, so if it was not original then it was added between '74 and the early '80s. Perhaps by the second ascent team?
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Sep 26, 2011 - 12:15pm PT
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One fine summer day back in the 70s, TM Herbert and I had just finished doing The Yawn. As we passed the beginning of what has since been named Super Chicken, Herbert said he thought there was a good route to be done there and we agreed to come back in a week and do it.
Much to our dismay, on returning the following week, we discovered that the route had just been done (the hand-written guide in the guide's room indicated it had been done just two days before).
We went out and did what we assumed was the 2nd ascent. Though my memory fails me, I assume TM led the first pitch and we swung leads. I don't recall Herbert whimpering about lack of protection and believe me he would have whimpered.
So you see, Thomas, we did the 2nd ascent!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 26, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
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Jim Wilson:
In character with the rest of the route
There are lots of pros and cons but I think that is a big factor in crafting a quality route.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Sep 26, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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" "making routes more popular" in these times of crowds at the crags is also something to think about. BOLTED sport routes have made a lot af areas EXTREMELY popular,, in fact a little too popular~ Donner now has out houses for petes sake! And with those come "policies" "fees" and the rest of the pandoras box."
What bolted sport route at Snowshed, or the summit for that matter has made it "too" popular? Its a roadside crag, proximity is its demise.
I use the sani hut on donner and am thankful Granite Chief {or whomever} has donated it. Way better than the alternative. I also believe it shows a sense of stewardship amongst the climbing communitty. Not sure where the implication of policies and fees come in.
Super Chicken is a great route, I down climbed that pitch a coupe times before getting to the top, it's heads up.
I begin to wonder why even put routes up if you don't want them repeated or to become popular. The remnants just become vertical trash.
James
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 26, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
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Very interesting discussion, and good to see so many experienced folks chiming in.
Seems to me that if the two FAs are having thoughts about adding bolts, then they should probably go in.
This seems to be a case where the 3rd pitch is significantly different then the first two. The first two, being cracks, have good pro. So using B-Y or other climbs where the the entire route is scary, is not a good comparison.
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Sep 26, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
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I have noobish questions. If the FA party adds three or four bolts to an existing climb who says you have to use those bolts? Couldn't you use say a different colored hangar on the new bolts? If you did a climbing party could then chose hey I'm going to push death today or hey I have kids at home and want an enjoyable climb.
(But 5.7 5.8 leaders have the sh#t scared out of them practically every time they climb.) yep I sure do.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Sep 26, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
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Good point Survival. I agree.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Sep 26, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
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Truth is that the mods in TM are way over impacted- seems like routes with one x pitch that otherwise have decent pro could be spruced up to relieve some pressure.
Better to do it now in a thoughtful manner b/c in the not too distant future the old guard will be long gone and the hordes of new climbers will take matters into their own hands. The just leave everything as it was in 1977 approach is likely to be about as effective as teaching abstinence to high school kids.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Sep 26, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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Wow, the history and experience being drawn upon in this thread is really something to behold. An occasional weekend climber like myself shouldn't be allowed to post here in the same way that I shouldn't be allowed to go scrambling up a 150 ft 5.7 with no pro. :) Humor aside, a big thanks to all of the legendary FA's here for, quite literally, showing the rest of us the way.
"That sounds pretty ethical to me."
So, RA FA lead and his subsequent decision of where to place or not placen bolts on the third pitch of Super Chicken was unethical? And likewise with all such runout routes. I agree that the 1st acensionist should have the final say, but a logical discussion should precede the final decision.
thaDood, I wish I did have a logical argument for you, but I think logic sort of goes out the window as soon as you start talking about sports like climbing, BASE jumping or slacklining. Everybody has a different view of what they are getting out of it, how much they are altering the natural world, and when to say "no" when the risk/reward ratio gets a little bit too high.
Personally, I think routes like the Bachar-Yerian and Southern Belle add to the legend and mystique of Yosemite in a way that would be tragic to lose. For some, these routes are an inspiration and a lifelong goal. For others like myself, they are like ghost stories to whisper about around campfires. These routes leave a rich impression on all climbers, whether or not those climbers ever actually get on the route.
I'd venture that Super Chicken, although I'm sure it's a bold and beautiful climb, doesn't quite make it into the above category. And, in this case, I think the route should be set up in a way to provide the most benefit/happiness in the long run. Let's take the long view here and imagine how Yosemite might look in the next 1000, or even 10,000 years... long after all the first ascents and the first ascensionists are gone.
Let's say that without bolts, maybe 10 people will climb the third pitch every year. With bolts, maybe 100? Are the 10 people climbing it without bolts really enjoying it 10x more than those who would climb it with bolts? And do we really want to encourage those who would be willing to climb it without bolts to take the risk? There's so much more to life than climbing. And it's very possible that someday someone will overestimate their ability on this route, have a knob break off, get caught in a freak thunderstorm, or just happen to slip at the wrong time and they will die. I think that's a pretty high price to pay.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Sep 26, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
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Better to do it now in a thoughtful manner b/c in the not too distant future the old guard will be long gone and the hordes of new climbers will take matters into their own hands. The just leave everything as it was in 1977 approach is likely to be about as effective as teaching abstinence to high school ki
Touche' and Ditto.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 26, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
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Ok, Werner and a couple of others have posted here that they've done the thing.
Who here is going to go do the rig with no gear? It sounds like a great route, and I like topping out on formations.
Once upon a time I led 5.11+ onsight, almost regularly. I'm not going out on a 150 foot 5.7 knob pitch with no pro 400+ ft off the ground.
Call me a weenie, I don't care.
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