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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 15, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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Please, make it stop. We already have the Wings of Self Righteousness thread over 3000 posts. Henry chopped the bolt and then he led it in bold and grand style. RIGHT Henry?
Please, we can just stop this now.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 15, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
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Tomcat,
there you go again, You have applied NH standards to what the locals of SD "should" have done. I think we measure dignity different than you folks do down east.
BTW a control freak "should" count each day how many times he uses the word "should" to get a measure of how much of a control freak he is.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 15, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
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Tomcat,
gee, how your idle mind can imagine?, "extras". There were no extras I third classed these summits dragging a rope around them while this guy hung on a ledge with Ed holding the rope.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 15, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
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It was a piece of f'ing rock on public propertyIt was a piece of f'ing rock on public propertyIt was a piece of f'ing rock on public property
coondogger,
I follow your logic,
It was a piece of f'ing rock on public property But I can not believe your statement quoted here means Henry has recourse.
It seems we would all know more if we understood the Tragedy of the Commons? One steals to make his lot better at the expense of the group.
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 15, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
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One steals to make his lot better at the expense of the group.
What was stolen? Barber has "stolen" a lot of lines. If stealing means that a better climber comes up to a NATURAL line and climbs it than your right it was stolen. Sound like the only thing stolen was a bunch of egos from 34 years ago.
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MH2
climber
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Sep 15, 2011 - 11:00pm PT
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Dingus McGee you are welcome to your views but they don't seem likely to moderate Henry's attitude. I don't know what actually took place, but it sounds like Henry. Some respect him and others don't, but stirring up the local scene is not new for him. Please let the climb stay the way it was when first done.
http://www.henrybarber.com/categories/media/media_1-1.php
edit:
After reading the ethics/style interview in the above, I see that although Henry does not approve of retrobolting, he also says he is against an individual chopping a bolt before getting approval of the local community.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 15, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
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I must admit that at the time I thought the bolt was complete bs. Henry did the route without the bolt. (The fixed pin at the start of the route he clipped was also clipped by Pete Cleveland and has nothing to do with the issue.) Then, I don't know, ten or more people repeated the route without the bolt, including John Bragg and I. The route without the bolt was totally within the realm of competent climbers who knew how to deal with the mental issues of runout climbing. I've heard 5.8 mentioned; Bragg and I thought the upper part was 5.7. Whatever the grade, the Needles already had a number of climbs with seriously runout 5.7-5.8 climbing, and this route, although surely a brilliant bit of climbing, was not a major breakthrough and was fully within Needles climbing traditions going back to the Conn's.
Now I hear some guy who made the route his "project," a guy who was not capable of doing it---as events clearly proved---who had to be rescued while failing on it, and who placed the bolt only after being protected by the rescue lasso, apparently in retribution for having a route that he couldn't do stolen from him (how exactly do you steal a route from someone who can't do it?) then flaunted his incompetence by calling Henry to brag about his "accomplishment."
So now I know that any doubts I might even conceivably have had about that bolt being bs are more fully justified than I ever realized. It should never have been placed. The climb was not a "museum piece" as the Cleveland route has become, a bunch of people had repeated it, and it should have been left as Henry did it.
As I said in another thread, it's not as if there is some terrible scarcity of routes in the Needles, so that the climbing public would be deprived of one of only a very few opportunities to climb. There are lifetimes of routes left to do, and sport climbing galore at Mt. Rushmore for those who want bolted climbing. The only people deprived in this case are those who might want to experience Henry's ascent under the conditions Henry faced.
So yes, the bolt was an outrage and should have been chopped immediately, in my opinion. And it shouldn't have been Henry who did it, it should have been local climbers who respected the traditions and accomplishments of their own area.
But whatever. The bolt has been there for what? 35 years? Wasn't even a second bolt placed? The climb became something else, a symbol of the fact the the climbing world does not always move in the direction of greater achievement.
Personally, I think the time for chopping passed long ago, generations have grown up with the bolt in place, the climb has moved on to a new if less glorious reality, and those new generations feel entitled to the protection they grew up with.
Climbers are bolting routes in the Needles right next to or even coinciding with routes that were done years ago without any bolts. It's a new world, and the climbers who inhabit it are now in charge of either preserving or befouling their nests, as they see fit. The older generation is certainly justified in mouthing off about it, but I think their time---our time---for any kind of direct action is way past.
And now, pardon me while I dodder off to a newly epic adventure on a nice well-protected 5.8.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 15, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
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This too shall pass. I trust not too many of the brethren will suffer thru a sleepless night because of the demise of that lonely bolt.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Sep 15, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
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Good to hear from rgold as always but significantly here since he repeated the route in its original configuration.
Henry certainly has an acerbic side to his personality and occasionally got on locals nerves especially when he ticked the current projects. Yanks loved it when he showed the Aussies what was up, soloed good Brit lines and soloed new routes under the Rooskies noses but it's hell when it's your home crag.
The rest of us just get to criticize the art of those who set the standards in our passionate pursuit.
KG
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 15, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
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Hey Rich,
the use of the word "should" screams 'control'. It seems that these local Dakotans using the self same sovereignty we like when we make decision, have chosen a different course than what some of us would have done in our local area. When can we accept their sovereignty?
They may have a different measure of achievement than you apply to them and you may be their laughing stock. You do seem to acknowledge this near the end of post.
Paul Muhel placed the bolt we are talking about and as I understand it Cleveland's route was to the left of all this--on the rather bare buff face.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 15, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
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Sleep less night..? I was snoring as soon as i noticed this was another bolting controversy...
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Sep 15, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
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As another old climber with some boltless new routes to his (ancient, Cretacious, Guide-book-less) credit:
I did follow this thread with some interest.
I believe RGold and Henry hold the (bolt-less) high ground here.
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HJ
climber
Bozeman, Montana
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Sep 15, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
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When I climbed Superpin for the first time back in the early 80's it had a pin near the bottom and a bolt higher up. My belief was always that Pete Cleveland had placed the pin. Dingus has described how the bolt got placed. (Which was completely out of character for the Needles ethic of placing bolts only from stances on lead on first ascents, period.) For those of you who have not been on Superpin, the upper bolt was placed in such a way that it would not be more that ten feet away from you no matter where you chose to climb. Dingus talks about Pete's route being "totally independent" from subsequent ascents. This is a little misleading as all the lines people have chosen to climb have the same start. Pete has always been a hero of mine, and when I finally was able to climb Superpin and Hairy Pin it was important to me to try and emulate his style, (if not his exact route), so I didn't clip the bolt. I've been on Superpin many times since, and never did clip the bolt. It is bold climbing, but hardly out of character for the needles to climb Superpin without clipping the bolt on the upper face. Sometime in the last few years (maybe even a decade ago, or longer? My aging dottering brain doesn't do time that well anymore) the pin got replaced by a bolt. With modern camming gear, this was hardly necessary. I'd been backing up the pin with small cams for years. So, Superpin is doable without bolts. Plenty of ascents were done before a bolt was placed. I won't miss the bolts, although, I suppose they will probably reappear. It saddens me that it is seemingly ever more acceptable to bring climbs down to ones own level. This thread seems to expose the long history of this as well as some of the (in my mind) suspect ways it is justified.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 16, 2011 - 12:10am PT
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Dingus, how're things?
No, "should" doesn't imply control, it just expresses my opinion about the behavior I would have hoped for. And although I'll admit, upon rereading, that my acceptance could be called ungracious, I believe I made it clear that we should indeed accept their "sovereignty," like it or not.
As for measures of achievement, I'll certainly agree that my standard is not the same as locals bolting, say, the Kamps-Powell route and Sandberg Peak or the Kamps route or something right next to the Kamps route on the Bell Ringer. I'm also quite sure, as you say, that those Dakotans couldn't care less about what I might think.
Indeed, if they cared about any kind of public opinion, they wouldn't be drilling next to or on top of existing routes. And if other climbers find that acceptable, the Cathedral Spires will become one of an expanding list of mediocre sport-climbing areas. (Some would say it isn't much more as a trad climbing area, but for the most part, the naysayers haven't actually tried the climbs...)
Let's be clear. Old and washed up as I am, I'm climbing well enough to go and chop those routes by myself. But I'm not doing that or even thinking of doing that, because, as I said, my time for action is well past. In any case, loud squawking notwithstanding, I've never chopped a bolt. So I'll keep trying to carry the flag a little while longer verbally---I think that is a responsibility the older generation inherits---but I'm not going to start bashing up the rock in some quixotic search for bygone days, most certainly not from a home base 2,000 miles away from the day-to-day action.
Much more importantly Dingus, I hope all is well with you and yours.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 16, 2011 - 12:34am PT
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If I remember correctly from moral philosophy courses, the correct word to use in the situation may be "ought". Meaning mainly that some action has some moral force, but perhaps none other - but also allowing lots of discussion as to whether "ought" is an imperative, and if so in what circumstances.
The WoS debacle resurfaced after 29 years, and this one after 34. Do I detect a trend? What long-forgotten sins, real or imaginary, may I soon be called to task for?
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 16, 2011 - 12:42am PT
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Mighty Hiker
You may be called to task for your sins. It's up to you whether you answer or not. I do see your point though. Hopefully some of the responsible parties actually answer that call to task.
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Ol' Skool
Trad climber
Oakhurst, CA
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Sep 16, 2011 - 01:59am PT
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On this whole issue of "ownership" of routes-
I've heard of a number of first ascensionists that have been approached for "permission" to add bolts after the fact- Most of the time, they give it reasonable consideration, if the route has developed a reputation. But once the route is up, do they really have the right to? After day 1, does the route have a life of its own?
Is a route supposed to be more like a snapshot in time, or a video?
One could argue that, even with permission of the FA-ists to alter by retro-bolting, death-wish masochists have been deprived of duplicating the original experience-
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 16, 2011 - 02:07am PT
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Ol'skool
One could argue that, even with permission of the FA-ists to alter by retro-bolting, death-wish masochists have been deprived of duplicating the original experience-
The death wish masochists that you speak of don't care. Just because a bolt is there it does not mean you have to clip it. So you can do a route in the style it was first done. The problem is that after a bolt gets added to an existing route people do clip it and EXPECT it to be there. Without that bolt they freak out. Probably something the guy on the FA was doing as well, but he had the mental toughness to finish the route. Sometimes that mental thing is what really counts.
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 16, 2011 - 02:29am PT
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Mighty hiker
thanks for the link. didn't have time to read all of it but browsing it seems to be the same line of thinking. Climbs get put up in the style of the day. Get repeated in the style of the day. Then that style changes to embrace a new day. So fU?k the old day and get on with climbing? BS. If someone added a bolt or twelve to Bacher-Yerian people would chop them in a heartbeat. Why is this any different? Some museum climbs need to be there for the simple pleasure of the head space it take to climb them. Isn't that what it's all about anyway? Pushing yourself as hard as you can mentally and physically?
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