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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
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maybe he/she was the guide that actually got his/her gear yanked and was feeling it out with us.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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HT,
Yeah I noticed that too. I think the post was more of a rant...
kev
EDIT:
Wes,
Nice joke -LMAO...
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apogee
climber
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
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^^^ Yeah, I noticed that.
"My fuse gets blown when I see guides (or even just regular groups) hogging all the lines on a small crag."
To my eye, the majority of organized groups at any of the crags I frequent are lead by rock climbing instructors or facilitators.
True guides are much more professional, and rarely have such negative encounters with others at the crags. They tend to select crags that are lesser used, or if they are at a popular crag, they tend be guiding smaller groups, or are very accommodating about allowing others to climb through (i.e. Doug's strategy)
The problem, and the poor reputation comes from inexperienced amateur leaders (who often refer to themselves as 'guides') such as college outdoor programs, church groups, scout groups, climbing clubs, school programs, experiential education programs, and yes, REI's Outdoor Programs. I've had plenty of territorial reactions from such amateurs, and they make a bad name for the profession of guiding.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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apogee,
What you say is prolly a more accurate representation of what happens up there (Castle Rock.) A friend of mine works for YSMG and he is extremely professional.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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Did we all just get trolled?
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apogee
climber
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
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"Did we all just get trolled? "
The thought occurred to me, but if it resulted in an opportunity to address the knee-jerk reaction that many had towards the 'guides' in the first page of this thread, and clarify the difference, I'm good with it.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 15, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
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If so it was very well executed. Please don't encourage it. ;-)
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 15, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
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To be clear, all the Exum guides I know in SLC are top notch folks.
Exum guides put a premium on professionalism, discretion and goodwill ....and in diluting elitism. Some world class climber's employment was not maintained because...well, they were judgement, congeniality or hygienically challenged.
A charm school for climbing guides?
...Exum or JHMG as teacher/trainers.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 15, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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Former guide here. Doug Answered it quite well. BTW, this is still my defacto policy on top ropes for me personally. If I set it up, feel free to join in. I want to share as much as possible. Leading, same gig, glad to move out of the way so you can pass on your free solo or what ever...although it's rare someone needs to ask. The few times it's occured, we were behind slower parties, and you won't be passing us (talking to YOU, bitch from Boulder, colo who walked up to us waiting for all these parties to move up so we could get on the climb still at the base, while you slept in and then got pissy about the folks and wanted to go in front of us despite the fact that you could see 3 parties stacked ahead of us person to person -and then you climbed slower than the whole f*#king pelaton anyway you f*#king whiny cunt) I'm sensitive about hogging the resource, so here's what I've always done: Greet parties that show up and offer them to share my ropes.
Thanks for the wisdom Doug. If you have something to say to the guide service, they have telephones (hoping for clients) AND are always interested in maintaining good relations. Don't damage or sabotage folks stuff cause you are mad.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 16, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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If someone has a fixed rope on something, and they've walked away and left it for more then 15 minutes, then it seems to me that pulling their gear and dropping their ropes is totally acceptable. Maybe don't drop the biners, but leave them at the base. No way should someone tie something up without it being in use unless its private property IMO. Doesn't matter if its a guide service or private party. Now they can fix ropes and leave them with the hope that no one comes along, but if someone does, they need to understand that common courtesy rules.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 16, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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Now if we all just got over the idea that toproping had much to do with climbing...
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 16, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
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The "authorities" at Castle Rock State Park have enacted a series of Byzantine rules for obtaining guiding permits there. Planet Granite used to conduct outdoor classes at Castle but abandoned the program because it was so hard to meet the State's requirements, like providing a list of clients two weeks in advance of the date of the guided climbing or instruction session. REI is the last group that I know of who've taken the trouble to go through the application process with State Parks and meet their stringent requirements.
My point is that it's not a good idea to bring up any problems with climbing at CRSP because State Parks would just love to enact an even more rigid set of guiding rules. If REI continues to guide there, other groups may get in the door too. My feeling is that the more people who guide at Castle, the more the authorities will have to accept rock climbing as a legitimate activity within the Park. Harder for them to ban it too.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 16, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
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That's an interesting take on how the presence of an outdoor program at CRSP might actually enhance climbing access in the long run. (REI's Outdoor School is not a rock climbing guide service by any stretch of a professional's imagination, though.) If access became threatened, REI's 800 lb gorilla weight would be useful to have around.
In respect to REI's affect on outdoor education and guiding programs, though, the reality that they exist at all has a current, tangible negative effect for other programs. I'm skeptical the theoretic trade-off is worth it.
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 17, 2011 - 03:28am PT
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The Facts:
Many National and State Parks have written rules in regard to "fixed" ropes. For example, Yosemite National Park has written rules prohibiting fixed ropes beyond a 24 hour period and that rule applies to recreational climbers and commercial guiding/instruction within the Park.
My company holds a commercial use permit in Castle Rock State Park and on many other public lands. There are no stated rules on fixed ropes (only a stated prohibition on new bolting) in Castle Rock State Park. This forum topic has encouraged me to re-read our Castle Rock State Park commercial use permit as recently as a few minutes ago, so I know for a fact no such rules in regard to leaving ropes attached to anchors are stated in the Castle Rock State Park commercial use permit. Nor are any rules in regard to fixed ropes stated on the information board @ the Castle Rock State Park entrance or on information posted on the ranger kiosk, both of which I have read each time I have visited Castle Rock State Park and did so as recently as 2 weeks ago.
The aforementioned all being true (no difference what any given climber thinks the ethics involved in leaving ropes up may or may not be) anyone leaving a top rope set up unattended on a route for a few hours @ Castle Rock State Park would not being doing anything in violation of the specific written rules of the Castle Rock State Park recreational or commerical rock climbing policies. Contrary to this, anyone who chooses to remove someone's personal gear from any given anchor (a guides or recreational climbers) and causes damage to that gear by purposely dropping it to the ground (as super topo forum member "Shitguy" says he did) or any other purposefully harmful action to anyones gear is with out a doubt violating California State Law, which clearly prohibits people from purposefully causing damage to another persons (or entities) personal property.
My Opinion: First of all, I highly doubt any permitted guides/instructors intentions were "staking claims" (as stated by super topo forum member "Shitguy") by setting up a top rope and leaving it for a little while. Allegations by (super topo member name "Shitguy") of "Castle Rock Guides staking claims" by leaving a top rope up while unattended are preposterous at best. I am confident that most guides/instructors aim to seek less traveled crags, but if for some reason they are in a popular area and other climbers show up, most guides/instructors will typically approach the other climbers and see if they can find ways to share the rocks. I am also positive that if any climber simply talked to/approached any legitimate permitted guide/instructor who is using any top rope anchor/anchors on any public lands, the guide/instructor would gladly discuss/help figure out some type of agreeable solution for sharing the rock/routes. Calling the police and/or rangers or removing and/or damaging gear, seems far from a reasonable first course of action on any climbers part in these situations, especially without even talking to the guide/instructor first and discussing some type of solution.
More over, if any climber comes across a rope attached to any given anchor @ Castle Rock State Park or anywhere else, and it appears to be a top rope set up , and nobody is around to ask about it, it would seem more reasonable for that climber to simply build another anchor for the same route, which for example @ Castle Rock State Park is typically very easily done by using the same bolts, or if traditional gear and/or tying off trees/rocks, etc is required, just find a slightly different spot for your gear/anchor that will work for the same route and just go climbing!
If all climbers (guides and recreational climbers alike) do not communicate with each other and try to find reasonable solutions amongst themselves to any given issue at the crags and instead choose to damage other climbers gear, remove other climbers gear, file complaints, call the police, rangers, etc, it is only a matter of time before the land management agencies/departments further restrict and/or ban all commercial and recreational climbing activities.
Sincerely,
Zeke Federman (my real name, I sign all my super topo posts, my company & contact info easily found on the internet)
President
Sierra Rock Climbing School, Inc
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Jul 17, 2011 - 10:23am PT
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Zeke,
The OP's point (trolling or not) still stands:
Setting up a bunch of unattended top ropes in a popular area with a limited number of routes is just not cool.
Your post sounds like you are trying to use lawyer-talk to argue otherwise. It's not a legal issue - it's basic courtesy.
(Tossing someone's biners off the rock would be uncool as well, but I question whether the OP really did that - possibly he was just creating some dramatic effect for the post.)
Your proposed solution - that climbers should simply "communicate with each other" - is bogus in this case, as there was no one around to communicate with! It was the guide service that failed to communicate when they left the scene.
Any profession who chooses to use public resources to make a profit should adapt to accommodate the public who owns that resource - not the other way around.
In other words: non-professional, recreational climbers should get first dibs.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 17, 2011 - 10:45am PT
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From reading the Sierra Rock Climbing School's post above it seems evident that school has spelled out the manner in which it intends to operate going into the future. A position has been "staked out." If I had a group of paying customers coming at 8AM and I needed to have six climbs ready for top roping, I would be rigging them by 7AM at the latest and I would not hire five additional people so that they all might be "attended."
Public areas are being staked out for commercial operations.
The managers of public lands need to be aware of the conflict that is developing.
Sooner being better than later.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 17, 2011 - 10:45am PT
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I am confident that most guides/instructors aim to seek less traveled crags
At CRSP, this statement is definitely NOT true! *Every single time* I've been there, usually with some newer climbers (in a small group), we've had our (easier) route choices severely limited by large, crag-hogging guided groups at the *most popular crags*!
Granted, there aren't that many crags tall enough to be worth climbing at CRSP, but let's not pretend the guided groups are bushwhacking to some 12' obscure cliff to avoid interfering with everyone else. Good on you, Zeke, if you're actually doing that, but that hasn't been my experience.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 17, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
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The aforementioned all being true (no difference what any given climber thinks the ethics involved in leaving ropes up may or may not be) anyone leaving a top rope set up unattended on a route for a few hours @ Castle Rock State Park would not being doing anything in violation of the specific written rules of the Castle Rock State Park recreational or commerical rock climbing policies.
The fact that the "aforementioned" may not be technically in violation of posted Park policy doesn't keep it from being an asshat maneuver. Moreover, given the current liability cluster in US courts, if I were a guide service, I would be really worried about leaving my ropes installed but unattended at a public cliff frequented by great packs of roaming and often unattended children and drunks.
I'm not an expert on "attractive hazard" findings in recent years, but I'd probably try to become one quickly.
I had some sympathy for the OP's frustration with the situation, but had felt pretty critical of his solution. But after reading Zeke's proclamation, I'm reconsidering.
John's right: Zeke, your post is not likely to win friends and influence people.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Jul 17, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
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Zeke - So your response to allegations of discourteous climber behavior is to claim that Government regulations do not forbid it? You are weak, man!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 17, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
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so I know for a fact no such rules in regard to leaving ropes attached to anchors are stated in the Castle Rock State Park commercial use permit. Nor are any rules in regard to fixed ropes stated on the information board @ the Castle Rock State Park entrance or on information posted on the ranger kiosk, both of which I have read each time I have visited Castle Rock State Park and did so as recently as 2 weeks ago.
The aforementioned all being true (no difference what any given climber thinks the ethics involved in leaving ropes up may or may not be) anyone leaving a top rope set up unattended on a route for a few hours @ Castle Rock State Park would not being doing anything in violation of the specific written rules of the Castle Rock State Park recreational or commerical rock climbing policies.
I don't think there is any rule saying I cannot take your rig down and maybe chop the rope either! Afterall it's unattended property. It's f*#king booty!
Most climbers have respect in such scenarios, but if guides keep this crap up, it's gonna get nasty. If you cannot see that you're a fool, or just clueless and insensitive to other climbers around you.
Lame.
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