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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 31, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
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Interestingly enough, prairie falcons keep parts of Eldorado
Canyon in CO closed -- but the rangers there keep an eye on the
nest and when the birds have fledged they lift the closure.
The same is done in other Colorado localities.
I think we need to be sympathetic to the birds' plight. We're
extirpating many species as it is, we ought to save some of them.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Steve you hit the nail on the head.
"Close parts..."
Based on actual observation.
In this case, the closing of all climbing on Moro, there has been no study.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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I have a personal connection to these birds since I was the one who reported it to the park back in the late eighties. Since there were only about 10 nesting pairs in all of California at the time and they were on the endangered list, this was big news. Then in 92 I got to go down to the nest site at the time with EC Joe,Lee Aulman, a Scientist from the Santa Cruz Raptor place and friends to retrive 3 full eggs. Since it was Sept. and the eggs were already supposed to be hatched we knew they were dead, though the birds still sat on them. These eggs were the best egg samples to be taken from anywhere at the time and when checked for what caused the deaths, it turned out to be pesticides. They have just in the past few years started actually having babies. Knowing the inner workings of the park, its just not them againest climbers. Sequoia is probably the most climber friendly park there is. Its all budget related my friends. I talked to the person in charge of this closure today and he is totally open to have volunteers to help find the nest site and I'm hopefully going to be the go between, not the front man, in this. We can all step up and help!! Stay tuned.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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The Peregrine Falcon was removed from the U.S. Endangered Species list on August 25, 1999
hmmmm.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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That's true, they were formally declared no longer in danger of extinction, which is what that declaration means. However, they are still a ways from regaining their original range and are still protected under state and federal laws. Personally I find it somewhat amazing that a swath of climbers are still such self-centered pricks about this issue - climb something else for a couple of f*#king months and get over it.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Personally I find it somewhat amazing that a swath of climbers are still such self-centered pricks about this issue - climb something else for a couple of f*#king months and get over it.
What happens when a couple of months turns into many years?
For no good reason.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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What happens when a couple of months turns into many years?
Then climbers have been either a) complacent or b) subject to circumstances beyond their control (ala Summit Rock)
For no good reason
Raptor closures are sometimes done for "no good reason". Usually because of resource (budget) shortfalls, lack of staff awareness, or as a guise for other underlying logistic or political issues having nothing to do with climbing (again ala Summit Rock).
Bottom line? Either get involved and try to get it resolved or go elsewhere.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2011 - 10:30am PT
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In 7 summers living there maybe I saw 6 people not counting the clean-ups.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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healyje's bad language belies the weakness of his position. climbers just aren't a threat to the peregrines and probably never have been. the threat was DDT. the peregrines came back when that was significantly reduced in the environment.
that's realistic environmentalism. this crag micromanagement is really about pushing people around--oh, and diverting your attention from the real environmental issues while making you feel good about "doing something". there's a lot more to be concerned about than the peregrine out there, and very little being done about it. this is the little side show to keep you from making too much real noise.
i've mentioned this before, but it warrants saying it again. anyone who climbed at williamson rock in the san gabriels the last few years it was open knows that a pair of nesting peregrines moved into the gorge there in spite of very intense sport climbing activity, about as intense as it gets anywhere. they nested on eagle's roost buttress (a name change would have been in order) and basically shut down "being there", one of the most popular lines. climbers kept their distance and everyone got along fine.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Tork.........I should know you?? Been here in Seki 9 years now and been to both cleanups...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Bump + some comments...
The bottom line is that pretty much every significant climbing area in the Western and Southern Sierra is eligible for seasonal closure under these terms.
By “these terms” I mean that a government bio person is made aware of the presence of falcons at a crag, and then takes the position that they do not have the resources to determine exactly where the birds are nesting and therefore the entire crag must be put off limits to climbing.
The obvious solution is for climbers to get involved in the process of locating the bird’s aeries, so as to help the land managers to enact reasonable policies. I know of many climbing areas in the Sierra where no closure would be “reasonable” since the falcons live in huge caves and chimneys high on the rocks where climbers never go. One of these crags was closed the summer before last for no good reason. This closure did not make the news here because the crag in question is not frequently climbed (despite being spectacular with a moderate approach.)
DMT can LOL if he wants, and paint me to be a conspiracy theorist, but I do find it interesting that these blanket raptor closures are being enacted initially at relatively low profile crags. And of course one of the great things about SEKI and the surrounding areas are the amount of low profile adventure climbing to be found.
Healyje while mostly sensible is wrong to say “just go somewhere else.” For those of us who love to climb on Sierra granite, all of those “somewhere else’s” are home to falcons just like Moro Rock and so if we just go along with this unreasonable blanket closure we should not be surprised when, in the future, more areas are closed.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Yo Dingus - I'm just kidding around with that ;-)
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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climbers just aren't a threat to the peregrines and probably never have been. the threat was DDT.
DING DING DING DING!!!
What do we have for our new winner healyje....er, Johnny?!
In my best form of rhetoric....
Frack you, healyourhatchetwound.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jun 12, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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Personally, I believe the reason the Peregrines decided to nest at Summit Rock in Sanborn-Skyline County Park is because there is an ample food source located directly below the Summit Rock complex. Specifically, a big flock of pigeons nest in a group of trees down and to the east of Summit Rock. If you were a Peregrine nesting in a crevice on Summit Rock, you would have a perfect attack path from above to nab a pigeon each time the flock burst forth from the tree limbs. Instant lunch. Availability of a steady food source like this pigeon flock obviously trumps any aversion the birds might have to climbers on nearby routes.
If the birds are so disturbed by the presence of climbers, why the heck did they select such a popular climbing rock as Summit to nest at in the first place? Santa Clara County Parks is now trying to insist that the Peregrines moved to Summit because all of the climbing activity at Castle Rock disturbed them. Improbable to say the least when you stop to consider that there must be 500 rocks in Castle Rock State Park where there is no climbing activity whatsoever.
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ec
climber
ca
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Jun 13, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
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Bruce,
That is the 'scripted' gov't response...
 ec
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 13, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
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I don't think climbers are always the biggest problem for the birds.
Several years ago I was on top of Chimney Rock Spire with Rob after climbing Kitty From Hell. There were two peregrines flying around playfully over by Crystal Wall. There were two guys hanging out at the top of Crystal Wall - not climbers, we had seen them earlier in the parking area. We heard a shot and turned to look. There was now one falcon, the other was flying around in circles wailing. The two guys walked into the woods - we could see that one was carrying a shotgun.
I cannot say that I saw the guy shoot the bird, but it seemed very clear at the time. By the time we had rapped off the formation and scrambled back up to our car they were long gone so it seemed pointless to try to find a Ranger.
edit: In retrospect I should have reported the incident.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 14, 2011 - 10:02am PT
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The Federal Government and its Tools have a long history of pushing honest folks around. I mean they are the GOVERNMENT and they have POWER.
I don't think there is any sort of grand conspiracy going on but rather some lazy incompetent workers not doing a good job and not following guidelines.
I am not saying this is the fact at Sequoia. But if I was in charge I would want to know just exactly where those nest sits are so they could be monitored and PROTECTED. Just vaguely knowing seem bogus.
Real solutions need to be found.
This is not the first time and it wont be the last abuse of power by the feds.
Read the following article. This really went down and I am sure there are many more examples.
http://nj.npri.org/nj99/11/feature3.htm
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 14, 2011 - 10:50am PT
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The Federal Government and its Tools have a long history of pushing honest folks around.
that hasn't been my experience at all. the pushing around is recent, within the past 20 years. before that, rangers actually ranged and knew their territories much better than they do now. they were helpful, friendly people who rarely had to exercise law enforcement authority.
this was my experience in the upper midwest and even in the mountains of southern california. at the same time, the democratic process has become greatly diminished. gone are publicly reasoned approaches to policy, well-publicized meetings for public expression and discussion, and periodic review of measures which should only be temporary, such as the peregrine issue.
from this discussion it would appear that human activity is being restricted even further as the peregrine population actually increases well past the point of "least concern". and human recreational activity had nothing to do with the decline of the falcon.
what we're left with is a sick and unscientific myth that the mere presence of a human being is going to somehow pollute and destroy nature, and there's a hidden poison in that myth: if people are divorced from nature, if they encounter it rarely at best, they come to care less and less about it, and the really destructive things which happen--and they are continuing to happen--just aren't that important any more. i think that's the real result of this silly focus on the little corners of wilderness, the crises of this and that little species. the big, destructive policies trundle on without check. the public thinks small.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Jun 14, 2011 - 11:14am PT
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I haven't read all this yet but......I'd like to point out that Chimney Rock area is NOT in the National Park.
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