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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2011 - 01:13am PT
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Two of the most beautiful oak trees in Yosemite were mercilessly cut down so that people can see the cascade falls on 140.
Those trees blocked the view when they built the new turnout and view area.
You would go under them on the way to the Fish crack and Cringe.
Those trees were about 150 feet back from the turnout and there was a lame attempt to hide the stumps since the stump removal machine could not access the area thru those boulders.
Tell us more about protecting trees .... ?
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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May 18, 2011 - 01:49am PT
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Amen, no fires at the base. Sometimes people stay at the base in order to start early. While this is technically not allowed, I think it gets looked passed so long as it's done discreetly And with care. Having a fire is neither...
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 18, 2011 - 10:00am PT
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Here is McTwisted's fire device with the Special Powers applied to it. His first post of the image was so dark I couldn't tell he was a genius.
No Jake, I totally agree with you. And I think most of us understand that the polymorphous perversity of this site must be daunting as hell to log on to for you. Jesse however has generally been able to do it with more aplomb and humor and I would suggest you take a peek at his methods of the past. He has been remarkably effective and clearly can herd cats even.
Having begun climbing in 1963, I don't think I ever saw signs of a campfire at the base even all through the seventies, maybe eighties too. I do remember one or two on the summit of course, as these have been used since the fifties. And what with the tsunami of climbing use, there has to be pretty much total restraint on these as they cause so many problems, denuding the vegetation nearby not being the least of those issues. We had no problem when there were maybe .3 fires per year up there but now it seems de rigueur to host soirées atop the monolith, clearly a situation that can't be sustained.
It does occur to me though that some kind of summit tent, akin to Europe's huts in the Alps and elsewhere, would be worth keeping in mind. As the numbers increase---if in fact they do---it just would be realistic and have some really interesting benefits and social aspects to it. I know we can't erect a permanent structure up there---like a stone one--- but a big tent certainly, as we have in past rescues during inclement weather, and someone up there manning the setup.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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May 18, 2011 - 11:34am PT
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Don't know anyone stupid enough to make a fire at the base of the Captain when they could walk back to the car and get warm in 15 min., but I suspect that it's one of those community group hug/smoke out/hang out things that are so fun to be a part of........BUT, this is a solidarity bump so folks can read up on this kindly and gentle request. The top is a different matter of course.
As far as fires in the valley goes, if you get tourouns collecting the flammable material in the most likely spots a lit cigarette butt might hit: it actually reduces the chance of an inadvertent fire torching the entire valley some day, although I'm with Moof, breathing the crap is tough sometimes.
Peter...good stuff! Thanks for the humor~!
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2011 - 11:38am PT
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It's almost impossible to torch the valley.
There's almost no fuel on the ground and the response to any wildfire is so fast.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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May 18, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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I agree that we should minimize climber fires to ones of necessity. The base of the wall hardly qualifies as necessity.
Once after topping out in late summer sans water, we went for the descent. We ran out of steam in the drainage, but found a stinking green and black pool of bug infested sludge. Being a survival instructor, I knew how to build a multi-stage filter from scratch, but that water REQUIRED purification. We used a piton to reshape a flattened peach can and boiled away. That sh*t was nasty, but it saved us that night. That's an example of necessity. My partner never doubted my survival qualifications again...
I also agree that curbing the fires in the campgrounds would be AT LEAST as important.
Jake, you're doing fine interacting here. Carry on.
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
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Oh man Peter...I can't believe you think Jesse's funnier than me! Well actually I can, I think he's funnier than me too.
You may have missed some of my humor though, since 99% of it esccapes as sarcasm...a very subtle beast to catch sight of in text form. I also edited out a lot of my humor(some at Jesse's request), because I'm posting in such a highly professional manner. I don't want to get fired after all...then I might have to bivi in the cold somewhere, with no fire.
Werner, was that just your ashtray we cleaned up at the base of the Nose? Sorry. Why did you need two different ones? Why didn't you just tell us?
There are many destructive things that go on throughout the park and world. As climbers(and climbing rangers) we should try and protect and improve the places WE enjoy and are responsible for. Do you want to thrash the places you love because you think someone else is doing a bad job protecting the places they're responsible for?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 18, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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Bumping this along of course here.
Yes, Werner is right. There is nothing flammable left on the Valley floor now since for forty years running, Werner has stripped it all in building nests every spring as is his nature. Everything up to six feet is actually inflammable, all 10.3 billion trees and shrubs. Thank god there is not an oasis along the base as well-- you know, like Devil’s Bathtub or a Fern Spring kind of set up. There would be real problems then, prying out all “the sociology” there every season wouldn’t there?! Jake and his doppelganger Jesse The Droll would be overfaced, I think, and have to bring in Fattrad to clean up the town.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 18, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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hey there say, jakeW and jesse....
thanks for sharing all this...
:)
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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May 18, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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In reference to the campground campfires. Who the goes camping without a campfire? I'm not for ruining all these peoples camping experience...
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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May 18, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
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People who know how to correctly build and maintain a campfire using the correctly sourced materials enjoy a wonderful camping experience with very little impact.
Stealth campfires during epic situations can be a great comfort AND you can clean them up and leave no trace when you are done.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 18, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
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I love this thread.
I also love seeing how Jake has jumped in the ring with this wild and friendly bunch. From where I'm sitting as a purely unbiased reader he is hammering home all of the crucial points...oh and thanks for using my name, I sit back you do all of the work and I still get credit! Awesome!
 Fires can be destructive, even when they don't get out of control they leave a scar. They encourage folks to break off tree branches and mine dead and down wood that falls below live trees. In the case of the top of El Cap, where the tree cover is so sparse, this organic material is crucial for nutrients, and to provide adequate soil to cover roots (just look at the photo of the tree above Salathe Wall shown above).
Jake has not said that you can't have a fire on top of El Cap, he is only strongly encouraging that we have them only in emergencies, or if we really have to have Wild TV hike out to the forest and gather wood there where it is more plentiful. There are those in management who would like us to change the regulations to “fires are not permitted on top of El Capitan”. We’d rather try to encourage more sustainable behaviors then add another regulation to the books.
The other point we really want to emphasize: don't construct a new ring. Jake exaggerated slightly with his estimate of 10.3 billion rings on top of El Cap...he just moved the decimal too far forward… it is actually more like 1.3 million. A more reasonable number, and something we can all live with.
This thread was supposed to be about the base of El Cap, and then we'd write about the top closer to the time of our top of El Cap restoration week. But alas, you folks are too quick to see the connection. We have to realize the obvious truth. If we are not going to limit the number of us that enter the park, climb in the park, camp on El Cap, etc..we have to moderate our behavior for the long term sustainability of Yosemite’s incredible climbing areas.
Someone above said “you can't change human behavior”?? Hmmm, we witness this phenomena everyday. Sometimes its slow in coming, but sometimes it just takes a bunch of folks sitting around a campfire discussing an issue and coming to logical conclusions that we need to do things slightly differently. How many examples can you all think of?
Thanks everyone for making this such a fun thread, and thanks Jake for sticking with this virtual campfire talk.
Jesse
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 18, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
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Werner, come on, climbing rangers trying to protect trees, to prevent firering scars, and to keep LE rangers from patrolling the base of El Cap every night does not equate to the actions of other park managers making decisions to remove trees for "view" sheds. You've always had our back before, what is different about this issue? I know there is plenty to gripe about what the NPS does. But you know that we (climbing rangers) aren't responsible for cutting down trees at Cascade Falls. Much love man, but I have to call you out on this one.
See you later today, of course, and we'll laugh about getting all worked up on the Taco stand.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 18, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
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Tami, I love your work,
What are your rates? We actually have a couple of posters we'd love to commission you to create. I just need to figure out where we can get the $$ to compensate your awesome work!! No need to have that discussion here. Please email me at:
jesse_mcgahey@nps.gov?
Thanks,
J
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 18, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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Bringmedeath,
In reference to the campground campfires. Who the goes camping without a campfire? I'm not for ruining all these peoples camping experience...
Read the thread, we are talking about the base of El Cap (no fires allowed there for reasons explained), and the top of El Cap (fires allowed, but we are encouraging that people do so only in emergency situations), and to only use previously established rings. This is pretty similar for other walls in the Valley.
There are 100s of campground sites in Yosemite and throughout the Sierra that you can have campfires. We are not talking about those places. The title of this thread is "El Cap Fires". Period.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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May 18, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
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It gets pretty smoky for sure, almost intolerable in peak season. From personal experience, trying to stop people from gathering wood in/around the campsites is like herding cats. Seems like community rings instead of one in every site would go a long way toward solving the air quality issues (less fires, hotter fires, less "start up").
It's also nice when "controlled" burns are lit in the valley mid summer. That's fun. But I might be straying from the "el cap fires, period" dictate of the Ranger, so let's not bring those into the discussion.
While I don't want to see the tool patrolling the base for my own selfish reaons, I'm all for ticketing the dumbasses who start base fires.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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May 18, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
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Sean, your looking like the Barney on this thread.
Thanks Jesse for trying to do what you can.
Jeff
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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May 18, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
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Sorry dude but your just preaching to the choir.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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May 18, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
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Sean,
Definitely demand some accountability. Talk to your respresentatives, write a letter to the superintendent, and if you want to talk directly to this "Barney Fife in a flat hat" give me a call: 209.372.0360. I'm available right now.
Jake has been living and climbing in Yosemite since 1996, I've been here since 2001. We both came here as climbers, and we'll still be climbers long after we hang up the flat hat. A lot of what we say is a reflection of our love and commitment of this place. I still don't understand why some people on the forum get so upset at us for trying to protect climbing areas and wilderness. This is our area of influence, and I should add, the area where climbers can help us most to reduce impacts.
By reducing our impacts we also retain our ability to bivy on walls without a permit.
Everyone here who detests the impacts of roadways, campgrounds and other developments in Yosemite, should be psyched that designated wilderness starts at the 4200' contour line in Yosemite Valley, and 200' away from the center line of most other roads in Yosemite. 95% of Yosemite is designated Wilderness.
Thanks for reading,
Jesse
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