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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Jun 23, 2011 - 10:19am PT
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I was up there 2 weeks ago at Cooper Canyon Falls. Great flyfishing. Little Rock Creek is full of trout (there's who's eatin' yer frogs) Landed a couple of keepers. Lots of small fry up and coming.
I came in on the trail from Devil's Punchbowl (where few seem to climb any more) up over Burkhart Pass. About 10 miles. Really nice backpack.
Williamson rock should be be opened to climbing. This closure makes no sense. I guess it is easy to put up a sign and tell climbers "No." Much harder to get down in the 5-6 mile long canyon and fish all the trout out.
Although there is a lot of other rock available in this area. The crags around the tunnels, and plenty other random crags in the high country there are wide open.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
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Good points Spider. There are many other areas near Williamson that are ripe for climbing.
I breathe air into this thread because I don't ever want to make it easy for the Forest Service to continue to sit on thier hands as they wait and hope something will come along and make all this bothersome frog/climber issue 'go away'.
The Forest Service can listen to climbers and hikers willing to give thier time and energy to help with the re-opening of Williamson Rock. They can do the right thing and work with the climbing community to solve this problem.
They have proven they will not do this if left alone. They have proven they will not be pro-active in this matter and will only act when they have no other option.
They have no other option now.
I am in contact with parties that are interested in seeing this matter dealt with by the ANF sooner than later.
These parties are concerned with the way this issue is being handled and are helping the climbing community by making it clear to the ANF that the continued avoidence of dealing with this issue will not be tolerated.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Jun 23, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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Lots of climbing memories there. Hopefully we will climb there again. Thanks for your efforts Wayne.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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Judge Marilyn Hall Patel, a Carter appointee. Great.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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Ergo, Carter = Evil.
Can't climb at Williamson? It's all Carter's fault.
Ksolem, that's an irrelevant, pandering, ideologic cheap shot.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:23am PT
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O come on. It's an ill informed decision by a judge who wants to feel good. And yes, she is a Carter appointee, something which I think is worth pointing out.
How the heck is pointing out that President Carter put her on the bench a cheap shot? Did I touch a nerve? It is simply a fact.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:36am PT
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"It's an ill informed decision by a judge who wants to feel good."
That's probably true.
"And yes, she is a Carter appointee, something which I think is worth pointing out."
Carter left office 40 years ago. Do you really think his influence on this judge was so strong as to affect her decision to close an area to specific user group? Her decision was her decision. I'll be as skeptical as you or anyone as to the basis for her position, but connecting it via the most non-existent thread to Carter does nothing more than dissolve your own credibility.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:44am PT
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First off, you attempted to create my point of view as "Carter = evil."
You could not be more wrong. In my opinion Jimmy Carter is a generous and charitable man with a distinguished military record and a great humanitarian.
He led a failed Presidency, much of which was out of his control but some of which was in his control. I didn't like his choices of the people he surrounded himself with and I don't like much the legacy he left in terms of judicial appointees. This judge is an example of that.
And the fact that Carter left office 40 years ago but his judicial appointees are still running amok is proof that "elections have consequences."
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apogee
climber
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:59am PT
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Ksolem, you obviously have a big chip on your shoulder about Carter's presidency. (Or that's what it looks like, anyway.) Whatever shape that discussion might take, it has virtually nothing to do with this issue.
Presidential-appointed judges frequently develop legacies that diverge from the ideology of the POTUS who appointed them. (Kennedy? O'Connor?) Setting aside the political implications and agendas of a POTUS-appointed judge, every one of them are individuals who make judgements according to their experiences...in the end, it is their decision alone, and not the responsibility of a POTUS who appointed them 40 years ago.
I'm not particularly psyched on some of the decisions that the Roberts court has made in the last 10 years, but when I can step outside my ideology for a moment, I think I understand the core constitutional values that they are operating from. (Most recently: the SCOTUS decision re: Cali's video games law.)
Let's agree that the continued closure of WR seems capricious, and driven by hidden & unfounded agendas. Anything beyond that just seems conspiratorial and divisive.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 03:09am PT
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I have no chip on my shoulder regarding Jimmy Carter. I just tried to explain that.
I admire the man for many things he has done. Not so much as President though. But there is no doubt his heart is in the right place, and that puts him above most politicians.
You seem to think that I am saying that the judge is somehow under his influence. That is not my point. I agree wholeheartedly that the decision was hers alone. But, there is an ideological connection between the appointer and the appointee in this case (imho.)
Gotta snooze now, fun as always...
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jun 29, 2011 - 11:29am PT
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This is sad news. I had hoped to start taking my kids up there at some point in the future but it is not looking good. Simply sad.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
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Judges makes decisions based upon the facts presented to them. They may filter those facts thru their own sensibilities but, if there was no evidence submitted to dispute the need to protect the area, you've given a judge nothing on which base a decision to open the area.
I'd like to see Williamson opened, but until someone invests the time and money to obtain some persuasive expert opinions to support reopening, it doesn't appear likely to happen. It's not enough to say 'I like to climb there and I haven't seen any frogs.'
BTW, I can't think of a single district court judge who's been on the bench for 30+ yrs., now were talking about someone who was alleged appointed 40 yrs. ago. That doesn't sound right, unless this judge is WAY old.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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Fat Dad nails it on the head.
As for the Ad Hominem attack on the Judge, isn't it by definition fallacious?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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According to the wiki page she is about 73 and was appointed by Carter in 1980.
Edit: Ad hominem attack on the judge? I just think it's a bad decision and sets an ominous precedent. Since there's really nothing I can do about it I'll just go away now.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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According to the wiki page she is about 73 and was appointed by Carter in 1980. That would mean she was appointed to the federal bench at 32, or only 5-8 years out of law school. Again, doesn't sound right. While you occassionally get some younger appointees (maybe late 30s-early 40s), even that is really uncommon. I can't even think of any state court judges who were appointed that young. I'm not saying it's you Kris. Probably just some misinformation on wiki.
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
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2011 - 1980 = 31, not 40. Ergo, she was 42 when appointed. I can't believe I am bothering to write this.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Jun 29, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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FACT: Articles in the LA Times always have at least one or more facts that are not true.
Don't get too serious.
Batrock: We should take the kids fishing down there!
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jun 29, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
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Chief you make a good point, climbers tend to think of themselves as environmentalists and in the process end up alienating themselves. Most climbers I know are pretty middle of the road when it comes to politics and realize supporting radical groups such as The Center for Biological Diversity will end up biting them in the ass in the long run.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Jun 29, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
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This sucks. Never thought I'd miss this place, but I sure would like to see it reopen.
I wish I had the money to hire a biologist and lawyers and sue. I think it's a winnable case.
Aren't there any climber biologists out there able and willing to do some pro bono work? Highly skilled lawyers?
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