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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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But I do know that some misuse it's texts. Just like some misuse Biblical teachings. BINGO!
You're off-topic about "why we lose all those F'ing wars". But as long as you bring it up, did we lose Vietnam because we made our soldiers wear Vietnamese clothes?
Anytime you invade a country and then proceed with 9 more years of warfare and military occupation there are going to be a lot of pissed civilians.
If you want to learn about the history of Islam, read "Mohammed: A Prophet For Our Time" by Karen Armstrong (ex Catholic nun, religious scholar). Don't forget to read the footnotes, they're very insightful, many of them are quotations from Islam scholars or the Koran.
For a quickie, try Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Armstrong
A quote from the Wikipedia article: Until the 20th century, Islam was a far more tolerant and peaceful faith than Christianity. The Qur’an strictly forbids any coercion in religion and regards all rightly guided religion as coming from God; and despite the western belief to the contrary, Muslims did not impose their faith by the sword. Emphasis on "until the 20th century".
Christians were such Saints in the 20th century: Apartheid in "Christian" South Africa. Racism in "Christian" USA. 6 million dead Jews in "Christian" Germany. English, French, German colonialism in "pagan" Africa, non-Christian India and southeast Asia.
Slavery in the USA until 1865, 71 years after it was abolished in France, 31 years after it was abolished in the United Kingdom.
Although in this case one preacher burned a book and the other told his flock to run across the street and murder a bunch of innocent people. We know what the preacher did and we also know that his mentor didn't because he had begun to consider the consequences.
We don't yet know why the mob attacked the UN compound nor if the Imam incited it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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If you want to learn about the history of Islam, read "Mohammed: A Prophet For Our Time" by Karen Armstrong (ex Catholic nun, religious scholar). Don't forget to read the footnotes, they're very insightful, many of them are quotations from Islam scholars or the Koran.
Tell a bunch of throat-cutting, head chopping Muslims to read a Bible, an then maybe, I'll pick up a Koran.
Some things go without saying. Some things are inherent to the human race. Some things are taught to people based on twisted mis-interpretations.
Meh! I don't need a history lesson on Islam. This sh#t is happening right now!
Why aren't Muslims members of this religion of peace condemning this act against the sacred United Nations???
Why not???
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Good grief bluey
Did you start drinking at noon? Try smokin' a blunt and chill out.
Read what fatty last said. He was right on.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Tell a bunch of throat-cutting, head chopping Muslims to read a Bible, an then maybe, I'll pick up a Koran.
There are RNJ's on each side... And with words like that, you are clearly within that bunch.
You must not know history... As during many of the Crusades, it was the Muslims who often let the defeated Christians live, and even live amongst them, whereas when the Christians won they most often killed every man, women, and child.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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As during many of the Crusades, it was the Muslims who often let the defeated Christians live,
And the hauled them off into slavery, the males to be worked to death and the good looking women off to the harem.
About one million Europeans were hauled off as slaves between 1500 and 1800
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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http://www.undispatch.com/this-attack-is-different
This is not the beginning of the end for the international community in Afghanistan. This is the end. Terry Jones and others will continue to pull anti-Islam stunts and opportunistic extremists here will use those actions to incite attacks against foreigners. Unless we, the internationals, want our guards to fire on unarmed protestors from now on, the day has come for us to leave Afghanistan.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Slavery in the USA until 1865, 71 years after it was abolished in France, 31 years after it was abolished in the United Kingdom.
Hey boss--in what year was slavery abolished in various African and Middle Eastern countries?? How about two answers--de jure and de facto?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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There was a story yesterday about the arrest and prosecution of Muslim slave traders in Africa.
The saga continues.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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One of the best essays on fundamentalism, I remembered it from 10 years ago.
Brothers, FundamentallyCommentary | JOHN BALZARSeptember 17, 2001|JOHN BALZAR
It was shocking, and not so shocking.
It was shocking to hear Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson point angry fingers of blame at the United States for our tragedy.
It was not so shocking because these two clerics share something basic with radical religious leaders on the other side of the world: fundamentalism.
Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists worship different deities but they both live in dread of the anything-goes, individualized and expanding culture of the United States. They believe that America brought upon itself the wrath from the heavens.
This is not me saying so. This is them speaking.
"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked," said Falwell of the terrorists attacks of Sept. 11. "I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.' "
Appearing on Christian television, Falwell also said, "God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."
According to transcripts of the program, Robertson replied: "Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population."
What we deserve?
At the root, fundamentalism is a struggle against modernity--against individualism, against moral self-determination and, yes, against freedom. Behind fundamentalism is one theological doctrine or another, but Islamic and Christian fundamentalists are cultural and political zealots as well as religious crusaders. Robertson, remember, ran for president in 1988.
Fundamentalists share a belief that religious tenets, whether drawn from the Koran or the Bible, provide the supreme law. Thus fundamentalism is wholly authoritarian. Fundamentalism is radicalism. Look up radical in the dictionary: "the foundation source of something; fundamental; basic."
"Fundamentalism is fundamentalism is fundamentalism," says an Arabist friend of mine who teaches history at a Christian college.
I'm not trying to be provocative. Falwell and Robertson were plenty provocative by themselves. I don't seek to meet their accusations with accusations of my own; there will be people happy to do that. Rather, like many of us, I'm trying to understand just what the United States is up against now.
How, we ask, could this happen? Just what in all the world could propel people to do such misguided things? We shake our heads as if the idea is as foreign and unfathomable as the lives of those robed men whom we see on television in the desert far off.
But I don't think you have to look abroad for all the clues. The same hate-fear that drives fundamentalists in Afghanistan also works on the hearts of Christian fundamentalists in the U.S.
I share with scholars the view that fundamentalism is not aberrant but understandable behavior during times of upheaval in the social order. In fact, I think there is a little fundamentalist in us all. As we face the unknowns of technological change, as we perceive a decline in individual values, as we witness a shift in power from nations to corporations, the old ways seem ever so sensible. Nostalgia has a foot squarely in fundamentalist thinking.
This is not a new phenomenon. Japan, with its highly developed Samurai culture, found itself threatened 400 years ago by globalization and the advent of firearms. It closed its ports to the world for two centuries.
I suppose I must add, so the letter writers don't work themselves into fits, that I am not equating U.S. Christian fundamentalists with Islamic terrorists. Neither am I equating Islamic fundamentalists, or for that matter Jewish fundamentalists, with terrorists. I am saying that Christian fundamentalists see things much as other fundamentalists do. Terrorism arises not from fundamentalism but from extreme fundamentalists, who take it upon themselves to fight for the only order that makes sense to them. Holy warriors.
It is worth reminding ourselves that extreme Christian fundamentalism breeds its own violent cells of terrorists here at home. According to the Abortion Rights League, there have been 2,500 reported attacks and 55,000 acts of illegal disruption against medical clinics since the late 1970s in the United States.
For a free society, fundamentalism poses the most basic of paradoxes: It flourishes by tolerance, but tolerance is what it cannot tolerate.
Perhaps fundamentalism--and the fundamentalism that breeds extremism--is not so hard to fathom after all. It's right here at home.
As Falwell said, "I believe that if America does not repent and return to a genuine faith and dependence on Him, we may expect more tragedies."
So long as fundamentalists insist that this is so, it will surely be true.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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TGT said There was a story yesterday about the arrest and prosecution of Muslim slave traders in Africa.
Man, Christians would never allow slave trade. One of the many ways it is a superior religion. "Thou shalt not own people" is like the 6th commandment or something.
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Mimi
climber
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From an anthropological/sociobiological standpoint, I think we can categorize certain cultures today as being savages. Throw in religion and bingo. Even worse. Has anyone analyzed why that specific spot in Afghanistan went nuts over the burning? The occupation? Anywhere else in Islam?
TGT, do you believe the pyro preacher knew this would happen and that he provoked it? If it wasn't for cable news, those guys would never have known about it. Dang.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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So who's joining me for this? Just two days after the Dalai Lama
Speaker: Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf
Admission
Admission is free, but a ticket is required for entry and space is limited.
Contact
UCLA PERFORMING ARTS
(310) 206-8744
phil.rosenthal@arts.ucla.edu
Additional Information
Co-Presented by the Hammer and UCLA Live Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf Wednesday, May 4, 8pm Royce Hall In his role as chairman of the Cordoba Initiative, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf directs projects that aim to heal conflict between Islamic and Western communities. As Imam of Masjid al-Farah, a mosque located twelve blocks from Ground Zero in New York City, he preaches a message of understanding between people of all creeds. His books include Islam: A Search for Meaning, Islam: A Sacred Law (What every Muslim Should Know About the Shariah), and What's Right With Islam: A New Vision for Muslims and the West.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Slavery is still happening, don't fool yourselves....here's some old stats:
Human Trafficking Statistics | Polaris Project
HUMAN TRAFFICKING STATISTICS
The following is a list of available statistics estimating the scope of Human Trafficking around the world and within the United States. Actual statistics are often unavailable, and some may be contradictory due to the covert nature of the crime, the invisibility of victims and high levels of under-reporting. Further obstacles include inconsistent definitions, reluctance to share data, and a lack of funding for and standardization of data collection. Particularly lacking are estimates on the number of American citizens trafficked within the U.S. Human Trafficking Worldwide:
27 million – Number of people in modern-day slavery across the world.
Source: Kevin Bales of Free the Slaves.
According to the U.S. Department of State’s 2007 Trafficking in Persons Report (TIP Report), estimates vary from 4 to 27 million.
The International Labor Organization (ILO) estimates 2.4 million people were victims of human trafficking from 1995-2005. This estimate uses the UN Protocol definition of human trafficking, and includes both transnational and internal data.
800,000 – Number of people trafficked across international borders every year.
Source: U.S. Department of State, Trafficking in Persons Report: 2007.
Note: The TIP Report in 2001 and 2002 estimated this figure at 700,000; The TIP Report of 2003 reported 800,000 to 900,000 victims; The TIP Reports of 2004 through 2006 reported 600,000 to 800,000 victims.
1 million – Number of children exploited by the global commercial sex trade, every year.
Source: U.S. Department of State, The Facts About Child Sex Tourism: 2005.
50% – Percent of transnational victims who are children.
Source: U.S. Department of Justice, Report to Congress from Attorney General John Ashcroft on U.S. Government Efforts to Combat Trafficking in Persons in Fiscal Year 2003: 2004.
80% – Percent of transnational victims who are women and girls.
Source: U.S. Department of State, Trafficking in Persons Report: 2007.
70% – Percent of female victims who are trafficked into the commercial sex industry. This means that 30% of female victims are victims of forced labor.
Source: U.S. Department of Justice, Assessment of U.S. Government Activities to Combat Trafficking in Persons: 2004.
161 – Countries identified as affected by human trafficking:
127 countries of origin; 98 transit countries; 137 destination countries.
Note: Countries may be counted multiple times and categories are not mutually exclusive.
Source: UN Office on Drugs and Crime, Trafficking in Persons: Global Patterns: April 2006.
32 billion – Total yearly profits generated by the human trafficking industry.
$15.5 billion is made in industrialized countries.
$9.7 billion in Asia
$13,000 per year generated on average by each “forced laborer.” This number can be as high as $67,200 per victim per year.
Source: ILO, A global alliance against forced labor: 2005.
Foreign Nationals Trafficked into the U.S.:
14,500 - 17,500 – Number of foreign nationals trafficked into the United States every year.
Human Trafficking Statistics | Polaris Project
Polaris Project | P.O. Box 77892, Washington, DC 20013 | Tel: 202.745.1001 | www.PolarisProject.org | Info@PolarisProject.org
This is the most recent U.S. government statistic. However, it is constantly being revisited, and a newer statistic is currently under study and review.
Source: DOJ, HHS, DOS, DOL, DHS, and USAID. Assessment of U.S. Government Efforts to Combat Trafficking in Persons: June, 2004
The TIP Report in 2001 estimated this number at 45,000-50,0001
The TIP Report in 2002 estimated 50,000
The TIP Report in 2003 estimated 18,000 – 20,0002
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Mimi
climber
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Supply and demand at its finest. Horrific behavior. Another symptom of the moral degradation of our society.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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http://zocalopublicsquare.org/full_video.php?event_id=137
I attended this lecture, full video, audio above:
E. Benjamin Skinner, "A Crime So Monstrous: Face-to-Face with Modern-Day Slavery"
Worldwide, there are more slaves today than ever before, and as the first person in recorded history to witness negotiations for the sales of human beings on four continents, journalist Ben Skinner has gone inside the modern slave trade like no one else. In his first book, A Crime So Monstrous, Skinner weaves a vivid narrative of slaves, traffickers, survivors and liberators. With years of reporting in such places as Haiti, Sudan, India, Eastern Europe, and The Netherlands, he has produced a vivid testament and moving reportage on one of the great evils of our time. He travels from the White House to war zones and immerses us in the political and flesh-and-blood battles on the front lines of the unheralded new abolitionist movement. His journey led right back to the United States, where some 50,000 are slaves—including countless numbers held in hidden bondage right here in Los Angeles. At the heart of the story are the slaves themselves. Their stories are heartbreaking but, in the midst of tragedy, Skinner discovers a quiet dignity that leads some slaves to resist and aspire to freedom. Despite being abandoned by the international community, despite suffering a crime so monstrous as to strip their awareness of their own humanity, somehow, some enslaved men regain their dignity, some enslaved women learn to trust men, and some enslaved children manage to be kids. During his visit to Zócalo, Skinner will bear witness for them, and for the millions who are held in the shadows.
Personal note; in this brilliant presentation, he did exactly what the last line said.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Ask me about the time I burned a bible. No, seriously. Ask me.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Pate now has blood on his hands for starting this thread. Oh, the horror...
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dirtbag
climber
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It's too bad the media can't just ignore this f*#k from Florida instead of broadcasting his latest crackpot thoughts.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Even my extremely liberal wife thinks the guvmint should do something about
that dooshbag 'minister' now that people have been hurt by his Koran burning.
That's sayin' sumpthin.
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