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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I don't know if it's particularly productive getting too judgmental or second-guessing events-of-the-day in hindsight - people react as they will and what's done is done.
I will say I strongly disagree with both of these assertions:
BTW simulrapping-- this ought to be standard procedure esp when there is any kind of crowd. And there is NO EXCUSE ona busy route for not simul-belaying your seconds.
The better suggestion is just don't climb busy routes in threesomes which, by definition, are clusterf*#ks from the get-go.
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Russ S.
climber
Seattle, WA
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Even though I've climbed for many years, simulrapping has always made me and my partners extremely nervous (hence rarely do it). Does anyone know of a case of anchor failure while duel rapping? I normally climb with long time partners, so strength of the anchor is only factor of concern...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Yup, whining about a 5.6 trade route being busy with slow beginners, claiming they should be using advanced techniques, then making an example of someone elses misfortune. Self serving and pretentious.
Just my opinion. I really don't care what you think of it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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1) Thread titles can't be edited. Probably just a poor choice in wording.
2) I wasn't there, sounded like hari had a tough call and at least called 911
3) Gumbies try to die. Some are successful.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I've never once simul rappelled, have never seen it done or had it suggested by a partner, and I've bailed off with lightning blasting all around me, in blizzards, at night, and a variety of other terrifying scenarios. I tend to doubt it would save that much time because of all the extra double checking and general unease doing non-standard stuff in deteriorating conditions.
I'm glad everyone survived more or less o.k.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Again, all pretty judgmental. The couple who decided to top out despite being warned to the contrary clearly made their own bed. Hari sounds like he was on the ground when that couple hit the terrace and decided they were in trouble. I'm also unclear if the cry for help came from the three women attempting to rap the gully (who did make it down on their own), or from the couple up on the terrace - in either case a pretty tough situation given the conditions at that point - that gully blows when dry, let alone streaming.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Piton Ron and Joseph nailed it.
You weren't there Lamebone. You are coming off like a total dickhead up there. You weren't there and you don't know Matt, so lose the halo, it don't wear well.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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How did you sleep that night knowing those people were in serious trouble?
My crew would have returned to the car for more layers/rain gear, etc. and hot tea and then made an attempt at some sort of intervention with warm sleeping bag/clothes for the victims. Of course, as you say, I was not there and perhaps you did not have the necessary rescue gear.
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Damn. Those SAR boys in Vegas sound like a bunch of sissies. I can't believe that the weather in Vegas was SO BAD that they could't do anything.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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I fully expect to run into folks that are inefficient on long moderate routes. For them to move faster may very well invite a more catastrophic accident.
It is helpful to see an analysis of the incident and point out opportunities to learn. Time sinks into a black hole when you are at your limit and facing new circumstances. Hypothermia affects your ability to reason and your coordination. You don't expect stellar mental performance from a hypoxic person at altitude. It is equally unreasonable to expect perfect decision making and flawless execution of a variety of techniques from folks becoming hypothermic. If you have no experience with this condition, you may not recognize it in yourself or in your team. It can incapacitate you very quickly, particularly if you have other factors that cause you to decompensate quickly. Generally, you will recognize that a lot quicker the second time around - should you survive round one.
BTW - virtually all SAR want you out of the way and limit the number of bodies they have to carry. They often view all bystanders as potential victims rather than a resource to help. They aren't going to tell you that you should have stayed to help.
I wasn't there. I have great empathy for those facing that situation. I do know that there have been wonderful souls who joined forces to get multiple parties off faster at the cost of a little more time for themselves. I try to pay to that forward. Someone has taken each of us under their wing to pass the torch. I still have more to learn and would like to be "swifter, stronger, faster". That won't make me a better human being. I know many elite jerks and some wonderful people who have great tech skills.
Many times people won't accept pearls of wisdom. They may need the struggle to really learn. When the situation is clearly out of control, they need help and not an education. Just like the guy that doesn't want step by step beta, respect that difference. Yes, there are consequences. They won't understand the trade-offs and consequences because they lack the experience. Red Rocks is a big place. Get on an easy trade route, expect what you saw.
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WBraun
climber
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I would have immediately ran to the deli and drank nice hot chocolate while waiting for the nice warm sun to reappear.
I remember Lambone standing in the meadows watching The Japaneses dieing on El Cap.
I didn't see him running to the top to save them.
Instead he gave us all kinds verbiage here on this forum afterwards ......
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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This is the sort of thing where guidebooks and their writers can carry some of the load, emphasizing the skills and equipment required for a route, common problems encountered, the seriousness of the environment, and so on. To take an example, mentioning that parties of three usually climb at 150 - 200% of the speed of parties of two. Or that a standard rappel route is complicated, often sees rope hangups, and is in a gully subject to rockfall and runoff.
Or put "Yer gonna die!!!666!!!" in big bold letters inside the cover.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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I don't think you can make a judgment about SAR. You have no idea how many missions they have been on that day/weekend/week. You don't know where their resources are, where their gear is, what skills were readily available. etc. SAR is almost always volunteer, and instant response time should never be expected as they aren't sitting at the base of every cliff waiting for your call.
My little 25 person team may have 8 - 10 available most weekends, and our territory is huge. When a call comes in, a decision has to be made about the need and urgency. When an activation happens, people need to tell the command their availability and ETA. Planning needs to happen about getting the right people and equipment in, how to coordinate, how to access, on and on. FOlks expect urban 911 EMS response in a wilderness/park setting. That can't be.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Perhaps you could have expedited by assisting them locate the victims.
http://lvmpdsar.blogspot.com/2011/04/q1-2011-mission-detail.html
Mountain Rescue Missions:
32 missions
40 people rescued
15 people were injured
2 Fatalities – Both ATV Related
MR Volunteers involved in 6 missions
8 Missions Involving four- wheeling accidents or stranded folks
21 Missions involving lost or injured hikers
3 Missions involving stuck or injured climbers
Dive Team:
Missions of Interest:
On 3/12/11, SAR Officers along with two Mountain Rescue civilian volunteers conducted a technical rescue in Pine Creek Canyon on Dark Shadows (5.8). A male climber fell while leading pitch three and decked on the pitch two belay ledge. Other climbs still on the route were able to immediately assist the climber and his partner and make the emergency notification. The climbers on the route, along with several hikers and climbers at the base of the route assisted SAR personnel with the evacuation of the injured climber. (Pictures attached of Jason being helicopter in to the mouth of the canyon, for this rescue).
On 3/16/11 SAR Officers along with seven Mountain Rescue volunteers responded to Juniper Canyon with a report of two experienced climbers who were significantly overdue. The climbers were located on the Brownstone wall, approximately 20 feet off the canyon floor and approximately 600 feet from the top of the canyon wall. Due to high winds, helicopter operations were limited. Ultimately, the climbers were rescued unharmed after approximately 17 hours on a belay ledge. The climbers were prepared for the cool weather and were in excellent shape when the rescue team arrived at their location. This rescue started simply with a struck rope on rappel.
On 3/23/11 SAR Officers responded to Oak Creek Canyon for a report of two climbers stranded on the Solar Slab Terrace in an extreme spring storm which included rain, snow, temperatures in the low 30’s and wind gusts over 60 mph. The climbers were not prepared with wet weather gear and became hypothermic very quickly. Due to extreme weather, it took several hours to locate and get personnel to the climbers. Both climbers did a good job of self rescue and were able to get themselves off the technical terrain, but had become hypothermic to the point of incapacitation. Both climbers were evacuated by SAR personnel with the assistance of Metro Rescue Pilots. Core body temperatures were in the high 70’s to low 80’s. Proper equipment preparation is key to survival when things start to go wrong!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I remember Lambone standing in the meadows watching The Japaneses dieing on El Cap.
I didn't see him running to the top to save them.
Instead he gave us all kinds verbiage here on this forum afterwards ......
Werner, I think a rescue half-way up El Cap is very different than a rescue half way up a moderate route in Red Rocks. Ya know? Apples unt oranges.
My crew would have returned to the car for more layers/rain gear, etc. and hot tea and then made an attempt at some sort of intervention with warm sleeping bag/clothes for the victims. Of course, as you say, I was not there and perhaps you did not have the necessary rescue gear.
I agree. My crew would have probably reacted similarly I believe.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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The last people you want simul-rappelling is a bunch of beginners! Crikey - rapping is dangerous enough, rapping in the rain and the dark on an unfamiliar route even more so... add beginners and then simul-rapping, are you kidding!?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I can give the OP the benefit of the doubt that climbing up to help the stranded couple was not safe or realistic.
Doesn't change the fact that I think the premise and delivery of this thread is pretty lame.
Apparently a few others agree.
Personally I couldn't with a good conscious just walk away from climbers yelling for help. If I was in that situation I would have gone back to the car for any warm gear and gone back to the base to wait until they rapped.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Also, and as I understand it, the whole LV SAR thing is somewhat unusual and that it's actually illegal for a non-SAR person to attempt a rescue in RR - or at least that's how it was explained to me the night I stealth humped a load into SS from the highway at midnight anyway and did a rescue under similar (though dry and cold) circumstances when the SAR guys weren't available. I also believe there is some cloudy (to me anyway) distinction between the long-time locals who do rescues and the formal LV SAR guys. All in all, nothing about the whole LV / RR SAR thing seemed straightforward and that maybe there is some tension between them and the locals (again, never really got a real clear picture of the situation).
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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The better suggestion is just don't climb busy routes in threesomes which, by definition, are clusterf*#ks from the get-go.
I respectfully disagree.
Parties of three are often clusterfux, yes.
But for parties of three that have their sh#t together, their is very little time lost in climbing as a party of three.
Threesomes are fun--that's what it's all about, isn't it, especially on classic mods?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Bleuy...
No offense meant, really...
But your crew likely would have been the one's needing rescue.
No offense, Matt, but you're full of crap as usual. And it's not cool to insult people you've never climbed with based on their abilities. Have you ever even met the dudes I climb with???
Pfft!
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