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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 17, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
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@Joe,
Solar is by far the most promising of the clean technologies, but if you think it will solve our current energy problems you are completely ignorant of the facts.
Here is why:
Average over the entire earth = 164 Watts per square meter over a 24 hour day,
So the entire planet receives about 84 Terrawatts of Power
Current worldwide consumption is about 12 Terrawatts
But right now the average solar cell efficiency is about 11%. So this gives us 9.4 Terrawatts of power, which is short by almost 3 Terrawatts. And that is if we COVER the ENTIRE earth with solar panels.
Or maybe I am completely wrong, this is part of a conspiracy by republicans to suppress solar energy. Feel free to show some numbers if you think that is the case. Funny how a few numbers can cut through a lot of B.S., huh?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 17, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
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The only thing that I hope for is that Americans and the public of the world base their decisions upon learning as many facts as possible with regards to energy usage. Most of us are guilty of flicking the switch and depending upon it, and not giving a damn where it came from so long as it is cheap and reliable.
Remember the 1.1 Billion Gallons of Toxic Sludge released from the Coal Fired Power plant in Tennessee? Folks don't reealize that most industries would not be allowed to store their waste in that manner; however, the caol industry does not have to comply with the same environmental regulations as others, and yet they actually generate much more waste.
I am not trying to get anyone to come out and say, Nukes are the way to go. But I am trying to get every electricity user to understand the environmental impacts of whatever energy it is that you support.
GOP Wants EPA to Keep Sitting On Its Ash
— By Kate Sheppard
| Wed Feb. 23, 2011 12:04 PM PST
The Environmental Protection Agency has been weighing several regulatory options for dealing with coal ash, the toxic remnants left behind in the process of burning coal in our nation's power plants. The new regulations have been delayed for months now, and there's a good deal of concern that the agency may bow to pressure from industry groups to set a weaker standard. But if House Republicans get their way, the EPA won't set new rules for coal ash disposal at all.
Among the many anti-environmental provisions in the spending bill that the House passed early Saturday morning was a provision blocking the EPA from finalizing a coal ash rule, sponsored by Reps. David McKinley (R-W.Va.) and Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.). As the Center for Public Integrity reports, both lawmakers have been heavily backed by utilities.
The EPA was already under a great deal of pressure to issue a weak rule on coal ash, the stuff captured by scrubbers because we have deemed it too hazardous to emit into the air. The agency proposed a tough rule in October 2009 that would have designated the waste as toxic, but when the rule emerged from the White House Office of Management and Budget last May a much weaker option was also on the table. The administration has faced a good deal of pressure from utilities and the coal-ash recycling industry to adopt the weaker option in setting a final rule.
Right now, utilities are allowed to dump the ash into vast open pits. The EPA signaled its plans to regulate the waste in December 2008, after an earthen dike containing 1.1 billion gallons of the sludge ruptured at the Tennessee Valley Authority's Kingston Fossil Plant in Harriman, Tennessee. But if House Republicans get their way, nothing will change—leaving a number of communities around the country in harm's way. The Environmental Integrity Project has identified 137 sites where toxic materials from coal ash have leached into the groundwater, and the EPA has labeled 49 dump sites "high hazard."
The House-passed continuing resolution would also bar the EPA from regulating greenhouse gas emissions and slash the agency's budget by a third.
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Bargainhunter
climber
Central California
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Mar 17, 2011 - 09:00pm PT
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When I watched the documentaries on Chernobyl yesterday (via YouTube), it sickened me to hear the scientist/commander in charge of the "biorobots" (the young army conscripts ordered to clean up the radioactive debris), as they clad themselves in homemade suits of lead scraps tied together with twine, tell them, “I myself went up to roof yesterday with an officer and I assure you that there is nothing terrifying up there at all…”
Watch that clip and you will stare into the eyes of a lying man…
So why wasn’t this commander up there with the biorobots cleaning up the debris?
Vladimir Shevchenko, the filmmaker who shot footage from the roof where the soldiers were working, died the next year of radiation poisoning.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 09:14pm PT
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Most energy is consumed by industry ~5% in concrete production alone.
It takes a lot more than shutting off the lights, driving a Prius, and eating locally. We'd need to make systematic changes to everything, and until we demand that (and then make do with much more expense goods), nothing will change.
Nuclear accidents are like plane crashes. Big, horrible, scary.
Coal is like car crashes. Even pilots have a much greater chance of dying in a car crash.
And yet, there are still lots of people who are too scared to fly, but won't stay home either. In the real world, we aren't going to start consuming so much less that wind and solar can sustain us - we aren't going to stay home either. Are we going to drive, or fly?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
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Dr. F -
I agree, we should be able to sell back. But I also think the problem is a lot bigger then electricity - you probably know this.
Everything - *everything* requires energy in our society, most of which is not directly consumed by individuals - the road needs to be built and paved, goods and food built, harvested, trucks, streetlights come on, water is pumped, semi-conductors for solar panels need to be built, nuke power plants need bigger concrete walls around their backup generators...
Meh, I'm not helping, am I? I don't think we're shedding the coal/nuke monsters anytime soon, but it would be nice if we did. We probably could, but we would need more collective willpower than a human society has ever had (well, maybe if we had a good dictator).
Doesn't mean we should try... I think we should all try harder, even me (especially me), and none of us should be smug about our greenness (I'm not accusing you of that btw, but I have seen too much of that crap)
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Mar 17, 2011 - 11:06pm PT
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In full sun, you can assume about 100 watts of solar energy per square foot. If you assume 12 hours of sun per day, this equates to 438,000 watt-hours per square foot per year. Based on 27,878,400 square feet per square mile, sunlight bestows a whopping 12.2 trillion watt-hours per square mile per year.
With these assumptions, figuring out how much solar energy hits the entire planet is relatively simple. 12.2 trillion watt-hours converts to 12,211 gigawatt-hours, and based on 8,760 hours per year, and 197 million square miles of earth’s surface (including the oceans), the earth receives about 274 million gigawatt-years of solar energy, which translates to an astonishing 8.2 million “quads” of Btu energy per year.
In case you haven’t heard, a “quad Btu” refers to one quadrillion British Thermal Units of energy, a common term used by energy economists. The entire human race currently uses about 400 quads of energy (in all forms) per year. Put another way, the solar energy hitting the earth exceeds the total energy consumed by humanity by a factor of over 20,000 times.
Most commercial panels are in the 16% to 18% range and improving all the time, prototypes are heading up towards the 20% efficiency range. Its dishonest to use the 11% figure because it includes technologies like thin film and BIPV which are still very much in the early stages of development.
Its not, despite what so many people seem to want to parrot, a question of capability or cost its a question of political will. The tarp program.....the bank bailout fund...$700 Billion
is enough money to buy around 1.5 terrawatts of pv solar power ( assuming large projects)
The entire world ran on 14.5 terrawatts in 2004... The USA used power at the rate of 3.3 Terrawatts, mostly from oil.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 18, 2011 - 12:30am PT
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I think your calculations are basically correct Jeremy, except that you don't get 12 hours of direct sunlight per day. Even at the equator, if we look at one square foot, we would only get the Intensity equivalent of 3.82 hours of direct sunlight (the sun's intensity can be estimated by integrating sin x from 0 to pi, so we have 100% at midday and 0 at sunrise and sunset), so this gives 382 W*h/sq ft or .382 KWh per day. Multiplying this by your 16% efficiency gives 0.06112 KWh per day. The average person uses about 29 KWh per day, so they need about 393 sq. feet of solar panels, or about 43 sq. yards. That means a family of 4 could power their house pretty much entirely if they cover the roof completely with panels (and assuming an approximately 1600 sq foot house). Doesn't count transportation though. This doesn't work as well when you want to power a whole city though unless everybody puts the panels on their roofs. LA has about 12.9 million people, so you would have to have about 5 Billion square feet of solar panels just to power it. This is about 181 square miles. Sure it is possible to build this (if a city can afford to build it, I don't think LA can even pay it's employees), but where would you put it? Even the most barren desert areas have successfully lobbied against solar farms.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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This is only in the U.S. The numbers world-wide would be much higher.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/02/28/usat-nuke.htm
Fallout likely caused 15,000 deaths
By Peter Eisler, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Radioactive fallout from Cold War nuclear weapons tests across the globe probably caused at least 15,000 cancer deaths in U.S. residents born after 1951, according to data from an unreleased federal study. The study, coupled with findings from previous government investigations, suggests that 20,000 non-fatal cancers — and possibly many more — also can be tied to fallout from aboveground weapons tests.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 18, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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yer gonna die!!!
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krahmes
Social climber
Stumptown
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Mar 18, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
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There is an illusion of the disaster being localized, but it is not. We are living in the state of permanent catastrophe that is touching us more and more.
Vladimir Usatenko.
Came across that quote today watching a Discovery Channel docu-drama on YT of the Chernobyl event and while I believe Usatenko was talking just about Chernobyl I found it a apt description of modernity. I looked him up on the internet his story at Chernobyl is an interesting one.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 18, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
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A Chernobyl cautionary tale:
I was working on a contract job at Idaho National Engineering Laboratory (INEL) when Chernobyl went up. The morning (Idaho time) of the public announcement (by Sweden) I was going through the radiation detectors that guard the cafeteria with my INEL comrades. Unusually, the detectors had been turned off. Not being an official employee, I hadn't gotten the word so I asked "What's up"? They'd turned them all off because they were triggering on the Chernobyl radiation. OK, so far, no worries, they were tuned to detect a very small rise above the normal background radiation.
So what was worrying? The general kibbutzing among the workers (mostly engineers) was "can't happen in the US", "we're better than the Russians", "the Russians are always cutting corners".
We now have the Japan crisis. We're "better than the Japanese"? I really don't think so.
A disturbing side story: I know a former GE nuclear power plant engineer who is a global warming denier. Just what we need, nuclear engineers who deny scientific evidence.
Sarkozy (PM of France) insists that the Fukishima disaster won't affect France's nuclear construction. Yet when my wife and I were sailing through French Polynesia in 1990 we came across several men with what looked like mild radiation burns who had worked at the nuclear bomb test site at Muroroa Atoll. So the French are safer than the Japanese? Don't count on it if you're Polynesian.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 18, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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unless everybody puts the panels on their roofs. Your problem with that is.....?
Seems like a no-brainer to me. You've got to put some kind of covering over your head.
Los Altos High School (In Los Altos) is covering a parking lot with solar panels. San Jose Municipal Water District has covered parking lots with solar panels.........etc.
Current cost of the new nuclear power plant in Georgia is about $15billion. Assuming it stays on schedule. A new plant in China is $8Billion.
It takes about 5 years to build a nuclear plant after order. But how long does it take from starting design to the permit and placing the order?
To encourage development of nuclear power, under the Nuclear Power 2010 Program the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has offered interested parties the opportunity to introduce France's model for licensing and to subsidize 25% to 50% of the construction cost overruns due to delays for the first six new plants (Wikipedia: nuclear power economics)
So now you and I will be "incentivizing" (a great Republican word) power plant construction delays.
As much as 60 years to fully decommission a nuclear power plant in the US.
Given the time from planning to commissioning (including delays), the direct cost, government incentives, and add the questions of safety, security, proliferation and waste disposal.
How much will Japan's nuclear disaster cost on top of the direct quake and tsunami costs? How many resources are being diverted to protect the population from the reactors that could be used for search, rescue, medical care, etc?
How long before the land and sea at the reactor site will be safe?
Nuclear power doesn't make sense to me. And it's non-renewable energy.
about 45% of the 2006 world supply of uranium came from old nuclear warheads, mostly Russian. At current supply and demand levels, those old stockpiles will be completely depleted by 2015. The world's present measured resources of uranium, economically recoverable at a price of 130 USD/kg according to the industry groups...... and International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), are enough to last for "at least a century" at current consumption rates.[ "current consumption rates"
Denmark banned nuclear reactors right after Chernobyl. Then committed to reducing carbon emissions. Now they get 24% of their electricity from wind and are the world's number 1 exporter of wind energy equipment.
Wind power provided 18.9% of electricity production and 24.1% of generation capacity in Denmark in 2008,[1] Denmark was a pioneer in developing commercial wind power during the 1970s, and today almost half of the wind turbines around the world are produced by Danish manufacturers such as Vestas and Siemens Wind Power along with many component suppliers (wikipedia Danish Wind Power)
As concerns over global warming grew in the 1980s, Denmark found itself with relatively high carbon dioxide emissions per capita, primarily due to the coal-fired electrical power plants that had become the norm after the 1973 and 1979 energy crises of the 1970s.[3] Renewable energy became the natural choice for Denmark, decreasing both dependence on other countries for energy and global warming pollution. Denmark adopted a target of cutting carbon emissions by 22% from 1988 levels by 2005.[3] In 1988, two years after the Chernobyl disaster, the Danes passed a law forbidding the construction of nuclear power plants.[
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 18, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
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I suppose your solar was subsidized by us taxpayers, it is not economically viable at this point. Right let's have a level playing field.
then let's end the oil and natural gas subsidies and bring our Navy home from Bahrain and Diego Garcia.
How is the natural gas industry going to pay for all the testing and upgrades (nationwide) the San Bruno gas line disaster is going to lead to? Increased energy rates.
Let's end the nuclear power subsidies and shut down the Fusion project at LLNL. Let the nuclear power industry find a safe disposal solution. Do you think they will? Will nuclear power be economically viable then?
Let's end the "clean coal" subsidies (an oxymoron if I ever heard one).
And since some of these energy supplies have been subsidized for 50 to 100 years, those industries should be required to pay us back, with interest.
Those are deficit reductions I can get behind.
Allow me to be an energy producer and feed back into the grid on a net annual basis, and get paid for it. I could easily produce about 50% more electricity than I use at home.
I'll take my new tax rebates and install un-subsized solar immediately. Perhaps even buy a Nissan Leaf for commuting.
While you're at it, will you get back my share of the $700 billion Bush subsidized Wall Street in TARP? I figure it's $9,000 for my wife and me. About 1/3 of what I need for a non-subsidized solar system.
Not that there's really anything wrong with subsidies when there's a compelling public interest:
"The Economist magazine said that although "Mr Paulson’s plan is not perfect ... it is good enough" and that "Congress should pass it—and soon."
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 18, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
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As much as 60 years to fully decommission a nuclear power plant in the US.
60 years. Not unless you include its operating lifetime.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 18, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
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In the United States, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) requires plants to finish the process within 60 years of closing. Since it may cost $300 million or more to shut down and decommission a plant, the NRC requires plant owners to set aside money when the plant is still operating to pay for the future shutdown costs.[38] In June 2009, the NRC published concerns that owners were not setting aside sufficient funds. (wikipedia nuclear energy)
The legal requirement is 60 years after closing the plant.
20 years after shutting down, 11 acres of Rancho Seco area were still under NRC control.
On 23 October 2009, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission released the majority of the site for unrestricted public use, while approximately 11 acres (45,000 m2) of land including a storage building for low-level radioactive waste and a dry-cask spent fuel storage facility remain under NRC licenses. (wikipedia Rancho Seco)
If the NRC allows 60 years after closing there's no assurance it will be any quicker than that.
Dismantling the damaged reactor at Three Mile Island won't even be started until 55 years after the accident:
Today, the TMI-2 reactor is permanently shut down with the reactor coolant system drained, the radioactive water decontaminated and evaporated, radioactive waste shipped off-site to a disposal site, reactor fuel and core debris shipped off-site to a Department of Energy facility, and the remainder of the site being monitored. The owner says it will keep the facility in long-term, monitored storage until the operating license for the TMI-1 plant expires at which time both plants will be decommissioned.[6] In 2009, the NRC granted a license extension which means the TMI-1 reactor may operate until April 19, 2034.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 18, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
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i stand corrected.
still curious how we go about providing all the powerr we have become accustomed through wind and solar. aint gonna happen without much greater technology breakthroughs. and in my oppinion, wind power sucks. i used to live near massive wind farms. stick them all on the cali coast.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 18, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
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agreed: there are no easy answers to global warming and energy production. Certainly no silver bullets. The major social and technological challenge of our time. US politicians waking up to the reality, as in Europe/Japan/China, would be a good start.
Reducing our energy consumption is quick, easy, and cost effective. For some reason Conservatives equate "conservation" with Socialism so it's a third rail of American politics. Bush's conservation "plan" was to extend Daylight Savings Time an hour at each end of the season. Brilliant.
I'm curious why you so dislike wind farms.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Mar 18, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
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"then let's end the oil and natural gas subsidies"....which should include, by the way, incorporating all their external costs in the price...
Actually our 1400 sf single story home has enough roof space for around a 6-7 kw system. Easily enough for all our energy needs including transportation.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 18, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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A neighbor of mine has a 5KW system. He also has an all electric RAV4.
Charges the RAV4 at night at low rates (when PG&E has excess capacity). Feeds PG&E during the daytime at high rates (when PG&E is sometimes struggling to meet summer demand). To qualify for the tax breaks you can't be a net energy producer during a year. So he has a small electric bill. No energy cost on the electric RAV4.
fattrad:
how do you store solar/wind energy? Easy, old technology. Pumped storage hydroelectric plants. You've probably seen them without thinking about it.
Pyramid and Castaic lakes, Wishon and Courtright reservoirs.
So we need a "Smart Grid" so that the power can be generated across a large power distribution network. We'd better not let the gummint subsidize THAT.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Mar 18, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
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You don't need 99% of the modern technology that's running off the grid.
This
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