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David
Trad climber
San Rafael
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Jan 29, 2003 - 10:03am PT
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Why do you find it incredible that it is still being debated? You don't "sign up" for a science the way you would sign up for a political party. You study reams of data and try to discern some empirical evidence of cause and effect. You keep an open mind are willing to listen to accept new data and new ideas.
Are there any legitimate environmental scientists out there who can assure us that there is a single and comprehensive explanation of global warming that is now accepted as dogma? Myself...I plead ignorance.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael
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Jan 29, 2003 - 10:19am PT
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Ugh...sorry for the disjointed sentence. Editing capability would be nice.
Anyway, I think what I was asking made sense. The science of evolution has passed the rigors of many decades of scientific debate. That said, are understanding of evolution continues to being refined and enhanced by scientific debate every day. How is it that global warming has reached a point that debate is not necessary? Is it really " the earth is round" kind of stuff? I thought it was a bit more complicated.
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Granitewalker
Trad climber
3rd Stone from the Sun
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Jan 29, 2003 - 11:05am PT
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So, does this all mean that LaSportiva/Five-ten/Boreal et al will start designing sticky rubber that works in the warmer temperature ranges we should be seeing through Global Warming!
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John O'Connor
Big Wall climber
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Jan 29, 2003 - 11:57am PT
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Man did I open a big can of worms by mentioning global warming.
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Jan 29, 2003 - 12:50pm PT
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brian-
are you thinking you get to tell me what is acceptable?
FFFFF----resno you pal! say, is that your route over there in the RA area? and btw- i consider it my right as an american "to digress to a level of disrespect... for the leader of our nation, whether (i) agree or not with his policies, thoughts, or philosophies", and despite the fact that i might do pretty well w/ his idea of a tax break, i am not dumb enough to think he is going to get the economy going like that... a better economy means more jobs and therefore fewer climbing bums and less crowded craggs, so i would like to see a more balanced approach, but whatever, que sera, no? maybe general dynamics and raytheon can get the economic engine reving up, shall we try that again?
david-
the debate around global warming is analogous to that around evolution in that neither is easy prove. both are slow and complex processes that leave no detailed log or record (save the segmented fossil record) and no matter how many observations agree w/ or support the model, the critics and nay-sayers can always say that nothing has ever been proven, as that is the very nature of observed phenomenon- the repeated failure to disprove a theory eventually builds a consensus... in the case of evolution, the religious beliefs of some are threatened and (shockingly) they make up the bulk of the opposition to that theory, and in the case of global warming the industries which produce the gases in question are (shockingly) playing the same role.
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10b4me
Trad climber
Bishop(hopefully)
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Jan 29, 2003 - 12:52pm PT
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well I see that Jody never responded to my question about the unseasonably warm weather in Cali this January.
hey peeps, don't talk about evolution in front of Jody. he is one of those gawd fearin' creationists.
how about w's bs speech. what a loser. think I may have to move to the land up north.
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Hammer
climber
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Jan 29, 2003 - 06:11pm PT
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Poor DMT, still thinks he's living in a movie.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael
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Jan 29, 2003 - 07:01pm PT
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You missed my point freeclimber. I didn't mean that the concept of evolution hadn't been proven. I meant that there are a lot of details about the process that can only be discovered through continued scientific debate. You don't honestly think we know all there is to know about evolution do you? The same is true for global warming.
Anyway...I'm officialy bored with this topic. Guess I need to learn more about it. Have fun.
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Jan 29, 2003 - 08:00pm PT
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this topic has turned a bit dull indeed, but i do get your point david. mine was just this: since neither process can readily be induced in a laboratory experiment, the scientific method can only be employed via the painstaking observation of complex natural systems. the inherant inability to reduce or exclude uncontrolable variables (as is accomplished in a lab) will always be reason for those who disagree to thumb their noses at the mountain of observations that do agree w/ or support both of those theories.
good luck trying to make up your own mind anout global warming! that whole debate is so politically charged that you will have a hard time deciding what sources are valid (i don't suggest gallop poles as an indicator of the likelyhood of validity).
the truth is that we really can't stop either process, like it or not. we can argue about it until we are all blue in the face, but the pending global population explosion makes the whole debate for not (IMHO) so we might as well just go climbing instead! once bangladesh and venice and a few of the worlds prime resort beaches are under water, then we can start to worry about reaping what we have sewn...
(and there ain't no evolution goin on out there in kansas anyway, so maybe that idea's all wrong too- and if that turns out to be the case i am going to sue the college i went to for my whole tuition back!)
look at the time- i'm out-a here!
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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Jan 29, 2003 - 08:13pm PT
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10b...California has one warm January and that is what you base your acceptance of global warming on? As far as being a God-fearing creationist, you are right, I am not ashamed to admit it. Also, you are like Alec Baldwin, B.S.(Barbara Streisand), Woody Harrelson, and others that bitch and moan about how bad this country is and threaten to leave but never do. You know why? Because it is the best country in the world and no other country offers the freedom that this country does. I think W's speech was great! Made me extra proud to be an American.
Once again, my apologies to Chris for hijacking his thread. (Unless he was trolling and this is what he wanted:)
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Jan 29, 2003 - 08:44pm PT
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What the hell do you clowns think this is -- rec.climbing?
Hardman Knott
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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Jan 29, 2003 - 09:15pm PT
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Sorry H.K. I'll stop pointing out where these guys are wrong.:(
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Jan 29, 2003 - 09:58pm PT
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I'm actually more upset that you forgot to mention
Susan "Saran-wrap", Sean "Pencilhead", and
George--your movie bombed--Clooney, and the other
"Hollywood Idiots" who percieve themselves to be
experts on world affairs...
Hardman Knott
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John O'Connor
Big Wall climber
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Jan 29, 2003 - 10:17pm PT
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Wow thats the first climber that I have EVER met that supports that simpleton moron Georgie W. Hey Jody I bet you wont be so impressed with him when you find an oil derrick on your favorite hiking trail. Also, actually there are countries that are just as free as America. Canada, England, most of western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, just to name a few. Someone needs to stop that moron before he drives this countries education system and environment into the ground. I thought it was interesting how he never once mentioned education in his address. I had to shut off the t.v, because i felt like i was going to vomit just listening to him.
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hillsyde one
Mountain climber
not a place where i can climb @ this moment
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Jan 29, 2003 - 11:01pm PT
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i fear george w bush. he is a frightening person. just ask the australians.......we are in for it people, bad.
as for the original topic"the warmest yosemite winter ever"..
i vote for the flood...lived that one.(and got run out) warm enough.
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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Jan 29, 2003 - 11:04pm PT
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If I find an oil derrick on my favorite hiking trail, if my kid ends up graduating without being able to read,if people start leaving this country in droves to move to all those "just as free" countries at the rate they are banging the walls down to get in...I'll eat my words.
By the way, there are quite a few climbers that think W is great. I am just one of the only ones who doesn't mind saying so on forums where they get ridiculed for it. I am not trying to hide my beliefs. For the record, W hasn't been quite what I expected him to be. He STILL hasn't rolled back all the gun-control measures that were enacted when Bill Clinton was in office. Yep, I like guns too.
Yosemite sure has been hot this January, hasn't it?
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hillsyde one
Mountain climber
not a place where i can climb @ this moment
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Jan 29, 2003 - 11:13pm PT
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global warming? deforestation? the heavy hand of god swinging down like a hammer to crush the non-believers? humans evolving into gas tolerant high temperature dwellers that fuel their world with their own flatulence?
*sigh*
Bob Jones' ass is the leading global heater(read: fart factory).
he will be president......you just f*#king watch man....
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Jan 30, 2003 - 12:30pm PT
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oh great, now the freakin angels fans are on my side...
cheers
-Fc
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