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mikael
Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
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Jan 16, 2006 - 02:36pm PT
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Knott,
For the n00bs like me in the audience:
You say that there is a bomber anchor at the top of the crack for a belay.
If you belay there, how do you get to the rap anchors?
Do make the traverse a second pitch or do you walk along the ledge unprotected?
What's wrong with throwing a directional in at the top of the crack instead of belaying from there. Too much force multiplication from the 90ish degree turn?
thanks
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chiranjeeb
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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Hi Mikael,
I am a complete noobie (toe jam was my first 5.7 lead) and I just set up anchor above the crack. You can safely walk unroped to the rap anchor ---no worse than 3rd class. When my more experienced partner came up, she pointed out that I could have used the rap anchors and put in a directional ---that didn't really occur to me.
Also even if I have bomber pro, I hate to weight it ---just in case it fails.
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trapeze artemis
climber
Surf City
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Jan 16, 2006 - 03:21pm PT
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Melissa said:
"I fell once when following the low angle traverse to the anchor on another climb and my belly stuck to the rock right were I fell."
Sounds to me like you were doing the "Beached Whale" manuever, this is a move typical to Joshua tree topouts and is part of every locals repertoire........along with the "Butt Scootch" (for descents), the "Dolphin kicking" manuever and the "Humping Chossy Rock Madly" move.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 16, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
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What's wrong with throwing a directional in at the top of the crack instead of belaying from there. Too much force multiplication from the 90ish degree turn?
Because the crux is the move AFTER the top piece as shown in the photo. Unless you meant a directional in the Horizontal above the ledge.
Also it is bad form to tie up a common rap anchor shared by several climbs in a popular and always overcrowded area.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jan 16, 2006 - 03:34pm PT
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...if only.
I was actually standing on a bolt wimpering trying to hold off the giant wall slapper that I thought I was about to take.
I stepped up into the move, lost my balance, my feet fully peeled, and I let loose an ugly scream. Only, instead of slapping across the rock like I thought I would, I just stayed plastered to the wall by the last bolt by the friction of my body.
I'm versed in the beached whale manoevre though. It's especially humiliating when I'm following and someone is looking down on me from a commodious ledge as I roll onto it and lay panting on my stomach, scraping my way to my knees, clutching madly for holds to help hoist myself, and only acting normal again when I'm clipped into the anchor. Low dignity moments, those.
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chiranjeeb
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 04:17pm PT
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"Chiranjeeb- IF you have bomber gear and are afraid to weight it, is it really bomber then? "
Good point :). I don't really know the answer. I have had my gear criticized by more experienced people and their opinion is that my gear placement skills are fine. Still, I am very risk averse ----I would rather not fall/weight on my gear early in my career.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 16, 2006 - 04:24pm PT
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Kristen -- since I did lead that, and you were the follower, do you remember where I set up anchor? Looking at the picture I have no recollection. I remember rappeling off and I'm fairly certain that is NOT where I set up belay, but what's your recollection of where it was -- did I set up at the horizontal or go to the top?
Ed
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jan 16, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
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"SEEK QUALIFIED INSTRUCTION BEFORE YOU DO[sic] DIE!"
Presumably because it is harder to find after.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 16, 2006 - 05:13pm PT
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Double Cross seems like a fairly easy free solo, I kind of forget is the descent off the Old Woman down toe jam?
Thanks
Juan
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta J-Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2006 - 05:16pm PT
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Toe Jam indeed seems to be the preferred descent for free-soloists.
Edit: But down-climbing Double Cross would seem more secure, would it knott?
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ikellen
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 16, 2006 - 08:56pm PT
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Hardman Knott-
I am so glad I am not the only person that sees this happen way too much. The ironic part of all of this is that in the latest Vogel/Falcon guide, it is repeated many times that people have gotten hurt by using the death belay. I'm sure all these gumbies are reading the guidebook like the bible - why do they somehow overlook this?
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jan 16, 2006 - 09:05pm PT
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jkellen - maybe because they missed it?
Here is what I see:
1230 TOE JAM 5.7 ** Pro: To 2.5 inches.
(Not that one should expect a guide book to discuss how to climb.)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 16, 2006 - 09:24pm PT
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Most soloists descend down the ramp next to Geronimo and zap down another ramp to a ledge that contours around to the north and into a maze of rock tunnels.
Double Cross is way easier to down solo than Toe Jam since the slabby end of Toe Jam is intimidating to descend with no positive holds, particularly if you haven't just climbed it.
Peace
Karl
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jan 16, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
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In the second photo, is the leader (belayer) clipped to the one bolt with the rope or with a daisy chain (length of nylon webbing with sewn loops)? Looks kinda like a daisy. A daisy chain is not meant to be used as a belay anchor sling, etc. The rope must be tied into the bolts (preferably equalized properly…).
Let's just say, for the sake of discussion, that he is tied off (solely) with a daisy clipped to one bolt. Is the bolt clipped with a locking carabiner? Is the bolt clipped through the bolt hanger, or through a lower segment of the rappel chains/etc.? How is the daisy attached to his harness? How is the belay device clipped to his harness?
Is it possible for a daisy and a belay device to be attached to a harness in such a way that a severe enough fall (by the second climber) would put forces on the harness that the harness was not designed for, resulting in failure of the harness and/or belay system, thus sending the follower to the deck (or both to the deck)?
“Also even if I have bomber pro, I hate to weight it ---just in case it fails.”
Some practice C1 aid climbing (possibly on top rope) would do wonders for your confidence in trusting “bomber” gear. A serious bounce test (along with an experienced eye) will let you know that the bomber piece ain’t coming out of the rock and is in fact, bomb squad! (It also might let you know when a piece is not so bomber...)
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Jan 16, 2006 - 11:38pm PT
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Hardman,
Safety is only a few secounds away. This is true for most climbing errors. It only takes a secound to test that hold, it only takes a secound to place extra pro, it only takes a secound to equal that anchor.... We all can add top this list. Hell it takes longer to drink a cold beer than it does to climb with safety in mind.
Brian
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 11:49pm PT
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“Also even if I have bomber pro, I hate to weight it ---just in case it fails.”
Whoa, ...... I ain't climbing with you ......
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GrandMastaD
Social climber
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:27am PT
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SuperTopo doesn't write guidebooks for j-tree...so I don't have a clue as to what where exaclty to build an anchor and with what exact pieces and the precise beta to get me up the climb. If C-Mac would do the responsible thing and give me the 411 I wouldn't have a problem!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:35am PT
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This is backtracking a bit, but I just read this thread and JaunBatten's comment really jumped out at me:
"It was an accident that anyone of us could have had.
The climber fell, and his first peace pulled out.
Landed hard.
Really no climber error, statistics."
Now I know you, Juan, and consider you a friend, so don't take this personally, but if a climber falls and pulls gear on the Swift, they blew it, plain and simple. It's not like the pro up there is some weird deal where it's hit or miss. No disrespect man, but that guy is just plain lucky he didn't get killed.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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GrandmastaD wrote:
"SuperTopo doesn't write guidebooks for j-tree...so I don't have a clue as to what where exaclty to build an anchor and with what exact pieces and the precise beta to get me up the climb. If C-Mac would do the responsible thing and give me the 411 I wouldn't have a problem!"
HAHAHAHAHA!!! Best laugh I've had all night.
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mark
climber
san diego, ca
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Jan 17, 2006 - 12:48am PT
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Body Belays were better. Don't recall these being called "Death Belays" New world
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