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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2006 - 06:03pm PT
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I disagree that many people would have to be clued in. You really only need Cheney, Rumsfeld and maybe the CIA director, and a mole or two in Al Queda.
You can get the Islamicists to do the dirty work themselves if you inspire them and make sure they don't get caught. They think it's their idea.
Then you have your war games on the proper date. Everyone involved just thinks they are doing war games. If any of the legit agencies gets too close to the truth, you pull them away to do something else.
And it's clear that the Administration's actions did facilitate the attack, via the war games, inaction or incompetance in air defense, and not following up on clear leads (if you don't know about "able danger" you haven't studied this enough) The question is why?
Cause they wanted it to happen?
Cause they were protecting the Saudis?
Or because they are simply covering up their own failures and incompetence and are so oriented towards secrecy that they obstructed the investigation of the crime of the century (see links about destruction of evidence, 9-11 steel, air controller tapes and so on)
Either way, we don't have the story that an event like this demands and it's the administration that's standing in the way of a real investigation.
Forget about the hubbub of physical evidence for a moment. What about the wire transfers to Atta? The meetings of Pakistani ISI chief in DC on 9-11 and the Bin Ladens being flown out after 9-11. Why can't we get some answers on those question.
It's because there really is a conspiracy. The question is "Is this conspiracy just to protect political power and friends, or to protect the crime of the century?"
Either way, we shouldn't just be sheep and think the Government must know what they are doing
Peace
karl
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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LoveGasoline,
There's no excuse for that kind of crap. The Constitution needs teeth. As it is now, cops can violate people's rights en-masse and get away with it, just like in New York City.
A workable solution would be enforcing Constitutional Rights with legal penalties; Violate Rights-Go To Jail. Violate the Rights of a Citizen while armed-25 to life.
All it would take is to send one cop to prison for about 25 years for an illegal search and from that point forward, cops would be guardians of our Rights, instead usurpers of our Rights.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Government Types all take an oath to God to defend the Constitution upon taking office, then go right to work trashing the Constitution, starting on day one. This tells me Hell doesn't scare these guys. But prison does. I know this because every time one of them gets caught breaking the law, he falls all over himself ratting out his co-conspirators. He's worried about going to prison, but going to Hell doesn't scare him.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
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Nice post Gassy. The threat to freedom is from within. The Administration has done a great job of laying the groundwork for squashing and repressive democratic opposition. These terrorist laws are designed to eventually target Americans.
I have a lawyer friend who has already seen the Gov use the terrorist laws in the Drug war.
If that's not bad enough, how about Tom Delay using Homeland Security to track down Democratic Texas Legislators so they could gerrymander more GOP seats in congress?
PEace
karl
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WBraun
climber
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Yes I have to say also, gasoline, that your last paragraph was very good.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Karl,
The Federal Government doesn't have a monopoly on violating our Rights. Your local cops do the lion's share of the dirty work. It wasn't the F.B.I. who rapped me upside the head with a flashlight while I was quoting the First Amendment, it was a local cop. It wasn't "The Administration" who tore my truck to pieces and left my stuff scattered all over the street one night on the way out to Joshua Tree, it was the County Sheriff. All I did to deserve this was drive through his town with a (unknown to me) burnt-out taillight, and refuse permission to search when he asked. For over an hour I sat hand-cuffed in the back of his car while he did his best to destroy my stuff. If that type of behavior drew about 20 years in Prison, it would stop in a heart-beat. If you or I did the same thing to someone while we were armed, it would be all over, but your Government gets away with this crap every day.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2006 - 08:10pm PT
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The police are just the arm of the government. The government sets the tone and the police follow. If the government emphasized civil liberties and punished abuse, things would be different.
But I understand your point.
Peace
karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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I saw a movie on community TV a few months ago. It quoted Bush claiming how he watched the frist plan hit the WTC before he went into the classroom where we've all seen him reading when the second plan hits the WTC.
The problem is...footage of the first plan hitting the WTC wasn't broadcast for many hours after the event. How Bush watched the impact is still a strange question.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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You see what we're doing, don't you?
Not only did Rajmit's original thread run well over 200 posts, but it spawned two more threads running almost 100 posts apiece. Add it all up and I think Rajmit has taken over Juan's "Troll King" standing. Now Rajmit has single-handedly earned the title of Master-Baiter.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Karl, my hunch is Atta was playing both sides. Neocons funded and looked the other way, but maybe got more of a provocation than they bargained for. Most of the conspiracy stuff is tinfoil hats and poisoning the well, but the official story doesn't add up. Best not to worry about it too much. The rich and powerful have always done what they must to maintain and increase their wealth and power, and there's not a hell of lot the poor and powerless can do about it. 1789 and 1917 not likely to come again. Soon the rebellious gene will be identified, and feti which carry it will be aborted in the interest of national security. Do you ski?
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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Hang in there Lois, the nurse has finally arrived with their medication.
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Hootervillian
climber
high ground, twix the carson forks
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what a [url="http://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/bergeson/physics1/atomic/jones_cv.htm" target="_blank"]kook[/url]. an obvious agenda and with a history of taking his responsibility and credential lightly.
worth reading what he has to [url="http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html" target="_blank"]say[/url]?
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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here is a link to a BYU physics professor that publicly released a paper saying that the planes COULD NOT have brought the WTC down.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635160132,00.html
Happy reading. I gamble for a living, and would lay 7:5 that Bushy knew ALL about it. Mute point, but my gut.
Couple of above links mention same guy, I'll leave my link though.
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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Obviously, the BYU prof should be given therapy then fired.
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WBraun
climber
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With a wave of the hand so easily we can brush off someone as being crazy, without even doing their own in depth research.
Reading a few lines of text and the mind races in all directions trying to find something solid and concrete to grasp and hold.
They thought Yabo was crazy when he first pointed out and tried Midnight Lightning ......
Just wait till the truth stares straight in our faces.
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Hootervillian
climber
high ground, twix the carson forks
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With a wave of the hand so easily we can brush off someone as being crazy, without even doing their own in depth research.
so right Mr. Braun. or just label them a Hater based upon an even more absurd conspiracy theory.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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True enough but then again there might be some pretty simple psychological explanations for most who claim to see hidden truths everywhere. What convinces one that they are privy to insights that all others are too stupid or ignorant to accept? I suspect that more often than not it's due to the simple desire to feel important and meaningful in an increasingly alienating society.
Still, there's nothing wrong with asking questions and looking beyond what the mass media feeds us.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Very true. Well said.
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