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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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Handled with real class.
Like it or not, draws are commonly left on projects (it is an accepted practice) and only the disingenuous think taking them is not theft.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
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nice! please spray ;-) here when you send.
regarding is it the same thing to leave draws on a 5.9 project as it is a 5.14 project. I'd have to say yes. and then I'd have to wish you good luck on those draws being around for long. Like it or now it's generally assumed within the community that draws on a hard climb are a project. on and easy route most would wonder WTF they are there (I'd probably assume someone had an accident). On top of that most people that climb 5.14 get why the fixed draws are their. on the contrary I'd argue the most people that climb 5.9 might not understand what the whole deal with fixed draws is all about.
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Nature-
Its not me, and like I said before I do not climb 5.14, I do not project sport climbs and I do not leave fixed draws. But I'll be sure to the spray the sh#t out of the ascent for you when it happens.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Since there was a video confession to theft of 35 draws (over $300.00 AND a felony?); had the culprit been stranded on the rope with no vehicle to escape with (as per mentioned above by moi), he could have been turned over to the local Law Enforcement for prosecution.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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haha... ok!
(that video bummed me out - just trying to lighten the mood)
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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Who on here has climbed 5.14 and clipped all the bolts, or placed all there own gear?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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This guys is a punk. He should have been beat. He's just gonna do it again. Very well handled. I would not have been that nice.
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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Survival- Is it littering when you leave draws on a route for a week while you try to climb it then take the draws down once successfull? Is it littering when you fix a couple of pitches on El Cap and a storm blows in and you have to leave the ropes up for a week or two?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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Not I Jack. (meaning your previous question)That is part of my point. It doesn't make it ok to have draws hanging there forever just because it's 14.
I still try to stick to things that I have a shot at onsighting, which makes me a 50 yr old 5.10-11 climber if I'm lucky. I can do harder stuff if I aid it enough and spend enough days wiring it, still not 14. Not willing to invest that kind of time with so many climbs I can do out there.
In answer to your second question, it sounds like you're mixing apples and oranges. My sense is that storm fixed ropes on the Captain are out of necessity, but not on a 2 week sport project. And let's face it. There are plenty of guys who have worked a pitch for longer than that.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
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by definition of the law (most) it's littering when you abandon property overnight / for 12 hours. fixed anchors are, by law, litter.
(who was there when the rangers removed the abandoned property (kegs) off of intersection about 10+ years ago? That's when I learned about what littering means to the park service. It's hard to forget how Coiler handled that situation....)
again... that's a slippery slope which in my opinion is why it is, and should remain, an ethical question within our tribe.
land managers though would rather a little "litter" than deal with safety issues.
and yeah, you got me at the 5.14 part. though i've sent enough 12s and on some the draws where in place and other times not in place.
I don't like seeing fixed draws for the long term. but two days does not a long term make.
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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Right on Survival, I think we are right on the same page. Would be a pleasure to tie in with you someday, if you are who I think you are. You used too live in Central Oregon right? If so I think we've got some mutual friends.
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BeeHay
Trad climber
San Diego CA
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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Anyone see a resemblance to bvb?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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Thanks Jack, I'd enjoy that too. Yes, I lived in Bend. Went to high school there. Once upon a time there were some hard things around there with me attached to them, but I didn't leave much evidence.
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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Survival- Right on, I think I may have found a little evidence ;) You knew Jim Anglin right? He was who essentiall turned me into the climber I am today, god I miss that guy.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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OK Jack, you just took four giant leaps up the street cred ladder in my book!
Yes, Jim was a good friend, and someone we could use a lot more of in this world. A great climber and an even greater human being.
Edit: I spent a wonderful day in the mid-70's just laying on my back watching him solo NW Passage.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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I thought he handled it really well. It was kind of like saying, "Perhaps there are some basic ways of being a decent human being that you're not familiar with. Let's start at the beginning." Loved it!
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
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Survial- Yes Jim was the man! Still is too, we keep thinking hes just going to pop out of the bushes somewhere up in the Menagerie ready to tie in and share another climb. His solo of NW Passage was probably the early 80's Jim did't really start climbing until 1978/9 or so, so it could have been then but my guess a year or two later. Hell I wansn't even born then though, so what do I know ;)
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
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Fixed Draws are an established part of climbing practices. It's not really surprising that ST posters are of the more "anti" crowd. As pointed out above, fixed draws in sport = fixed lines in trad. Both irk some people to no end. Most (the vast majority) don't really care so long as the fixed gear isn't left for extended lengths of time. Leave it, get your project (Sport or Trad) done and remove them.
In both "camps" there are instances where long term fixed equipment is the norm. Well established "HARD" sport areas (eg Smith) will have some "perma-draws" and long established Trad areas will have fixed lines (eg Heart Ledges).
The people that bitch the most about draws typically are not very involved in the sport side of things.
Live and let live within reason I say.
That guy was stealing - plain and simple.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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Pretty sure it was before I graduated in 79. But hell, what do I know, I'm so old I know most of the trees at Smith Rocks by their first name......It would be hard for me to believe that I started before Jim.....Damn, he was a fast burner!
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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Ya I know Jim didn't start climbing until he was 28 or so. I have a picture of him during his first climb of Rooster Rock, and I swear the date on it is 78 or 79. I can double check when I'm at home. Not like it really matter you guys where both still bad asses. :)
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