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WBraun
climber
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MTucker -- "Can't use a Gri Gri or Cinch without a belay loop."
Stupidest remark on the whole thread.
I've been belaying using the gri-gri since it first appeared on the market years ago to this day not on the belay loop.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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^^Agreed Werner.
I don't like belay loops. I cut them off.
I have a strict policy of NO metal on metal and NO cloth on cloth.
Cloth on metal only.
Wow, Chris - really?
So you don't ever use a Cinch or Gri-Gri? Never strung a few runners together to extend an anchor? Speaking of anchor, you must sling the hangers with webbing then, right? And every SINGLE bolt you encounter, you sling as well?
And your cordolette must be a knot-to-biner-to intermediate-something-to-biner-to-other-end-of-cordolette?
Really?
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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IMO, the belay loop is an extra link in the system that doesn't need to be used. However, I do use it in the gym as the GriGri `biners are a PITA to get around the harness webbing. I have noticed on some people's harnesses that theirs are worn. I don't belay anyone on the belay loop that is on lead and I don't like being belayed by the loop when I'm on lead.
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The Lisa
Trad climber
Da Bronx, NY
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I find this discussion really useful - great to see the pros and cons of each system.
I belay and rappel off my belay loop and do not back it up. I do inspect it regularly as it often crosses my mind that I and/or my partner are depending on this single sewn loop.
A failure while rappelling would be saved by my rappel backup. Resolving that problem while dangling in the air would not be fun.
I TR through my harness loops which back each other up, and I inspect those often too.
Good food for thought.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Have you guys ever looked at a quickdraw? Where they sew it, it's triple layer webbing but on the ends, it's merely single layer. You trust those don't you? I'll bet quickdraws get way more force applied to them than your belay loop ever does. Have you looked closely at a belay loop? The one of mine I just looked at has triple layer webbing for about three inches and is doubled and sewn the rest of the way.
Did you guys even read the Black Diamond link? Did you read where their belay loops are subjected to 15 kN (3,372lbf) of force for three minutes? Did you read where they regularly test belay loops over 6,000 lbf and historically average over 5,000 lbf?
Do you think your body would survive forces enough to break a belay loop?
Do you constantly worry about the brake cable in your car breaking? Do you live with your helmet on worrying about meteors?
This is very, very much ado about nothing.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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I'm a member of the dept of redundancy dept. What's the big deal? So I may look like a noob. Doesn't cost any extra, doesn't get in the way. Just a little insurance. And maybe I'll find myself somewhere that that little piece of cord would come in handy.
Was nearly killed once, don't want to risk it again.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Hey, if it makes you feel good, then do it!
If not, then fo ge' bou.. Easy money. Painless, too.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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I use an extra loop of bright yellow accessory cord mostly to make it easier to look down and see where both loops are, also as a convenient extra place to clip a prussic or atc during belay or rap switchovers. Tie in to the waistband, though. FWIW.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Certain topics seem to have a life of their own. This is one of the ones that won't die.
There doesn't seem to be any harm in adding a backup, unless the presence of a backup encourages the user to continue climbing in a harness that should be retired.
On the other hand, it is by now beyond contention that, for a harness that hasn't been severely shredded and obviously in need of retirement, the belay loop is among the strongest links in the entire chain of safety equipment.
I think many of us indulge in certain ritualistic practices whose aim, more psychological than realistic, is to appease the fates by reducing some perceived risk. The risk seems to be chosen for its amenability to action rather than because of any realistic evaluation of its likelihood.
Belay loop backup is surely a prime example of this phenomenon, but if we are honest with ourselves, we can probably all find some private "safety procedure" we embrace whose contribution to our actual safety is probably negligible.
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Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Goleta, California
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I still do a hip belay so the strength of the belay loop is not as important.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
SLO Cal
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Did you guys even read the Black Diamond link? Did you read where their belay loops are subjected to 15 kN (3,372lbf) of force for three minutes? Did you read where they regularly test belay loops over 6,000 lbf and historically average over 5,000 lbf?
I dont back it up because I am afraid it cant stand some force put on it when it is in good condition, I BACK IT UP because when I rappel, I notice some side to side rubbing that is seemingly wearing it a bit. I realize I could rappel directly on my harness and forego the loop (probably safer), but for speed I just rappell straight off the belay loop and back it up with another piece of 3/4' webbing.
No drama, just noticed some wear on the belay loop and solved the problem to the extent that I now feel safe. Would not recommend ANYBODY else do this, as it is probably VERY dangerous and I will probably die because of it.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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how many of you back up your rope?
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enjoimx
Trad climber
SLO Cal
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Not me. My rope is solid. My belay loop however, is suspect.
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WBraun
climber
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"how many of you back up your rope?"
I do.
It is the material/spiritual umbilical rope connected to the universe of knowledge ...
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Ropeboy
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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So.....it's OK to belay your best friend with the belay loop? But you wouldn't rappel on it because it's not safe enough?
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Mimi
climber
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GCrouch, very funny!
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climbrunride
Ice climber
Purgatory, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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Duncan - that page is awesome! I'll bookmark it for helping choose a new harness next spring. Thanks.
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climbrunride
Ice climber
Purgatory, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
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"nothing wrong with redundancy"
Nothing wrong with redundancy either.
But seriously, sometimes there is something wrong with redundancy. Read the Mini Traxion thread. The author did us a service by relating his mistake, which almost did him in. But he created his own problem by trying to be redundant when it was unnecessary.
Too often, people think that by throwing more stuff at a perceived problem, they mitigate the problem. However the problem might not exist to begin with. And sometimes those 'solutions' create problems of their own.
I would think that everyone who back-ups their belay loops would also back-up their waistbelts, but NO ONE has said that yet. Why? Because they think it is strong enough. Or inconvenient. And no one has mentioned backing up their belay/rappel biner either. What gives?
BTW, I realized that my belay loop is actually backed up. Those smart guys at Misty sewed a second loop of webbing inside it. So I have two loops of webbing, but the extra one is just inside the first one. Then again, that's how all belay loops are made.
Oh, and yes, I did climb before responding ;-)
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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I really get a kick out of the people that belay thru both the leg loop and waist loop instead of "The Belay Loop"
If looked at while belaying thru both loops you will notice that the Carabiner is almost always in a cross load direction.
The larger part of the biner, the belay device if loaded will be pulling across the biner opposite the gate.......
Please keep thinking this is making you safer.....
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