Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2010 - 01:55am PT
|
Fritz,
Thanks for doing all the real work of compiling the key photos from your catalog collection (and ads) and photographing your biners. Looking for the minor variations is something I like to do - sort of a carryover from coin collecting in the past.
Thanks also to Steve for his continued interest in this and to many others for sharing their images and information.
There are still 2 fairly simple questions which I don't know the answers to:
1. The 1960 Dolt Hut ad shows the Chouinard "Model III" carabiner.
This implies there were models I and II.
What were the differences between I, II, and III?
In my earlier post I noted the difference in machining of the body at the gate hinge of a few examples. I don't know if this is one of the differences, or if there are other biners out there which have more obvious and consistent differences. It seems like there would need to be at least 2 differences to have a I, II and III.
Or was the "Model III" a misnomer? Chouinard does not refer to it explicitly in later catalogs, and he didn't have his own catalog in 1960.
2. "Over the last 17 years the Chouinard Carabiner has gone through five major design changes. This last one was prompted by the pressures of inflation and dollar devaluations. But by changing from hot drop-forging the body to a new cold-forming process we not only saved money but produced a stronger, lighter, and more versatile carabiner." - Chouinard 1975 catalog, p.6
Clearly, the 1957/58, 1968, and 1974 are 3 major designs, which suggests 2 major design changes.
What are the other 3 major design changes of the 5?
(I believe Steve has asked about this in an earlier thread)
Are "Model I" and "Model II" 2 of the changes (vs. III)? The body milling difference doesn't look that "major" to me....
Was the 1971 version made in Germany considered to be a major change from the 1968?
It is also possible that Chouinard meant "17 years, 5 major designs", which is 4 design changes.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2010 - 02:30am PT
|
One other thing.
In your edited and improved original post, you now use the word "embossed" quite a bit.
Embossing is really supposed to be about creating raised or lowered relief in sheet metal or paper (like the old notary public seal).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embossing
Since carabiners are not sheet metal, more appropriate terms might be good.
I like the term "stamped lettering" when the letters are cut into the metal, probably stamped with a small separate die.
When the letters are raised up from the metal, this is probably by striking from a die where the letters are cut into the die.
It could be an original drop forging die like the ALCOA model, or maybe from a separate die.
I like the term "raised lettering" for this. Maybe "struck" might also work, although that is more like a reference to manufacturing coins.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 09:59am PT
|
Clint: Thanks for the input. Hopefully more information is forthcoming.
Re. my use of embossing. I was being lazy. I figured it worked for the raised lettering, but I knew it was not correct for the stamped lettering.
I will take your suggestions and change the lettering descriptions to "technically correct" wording.
A friend has now passed this thread onto one of the early Chouinard Equipment reps. Hopefully he can shed more light on how often the catalogs were issued, as well as arcane carabiner questions.
|
|
groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2010 - 11:40am PT
|
Fritz,
regarding the "820" on the AlCOA carabiners:
My friend who worked with ALCOA said he wasn't sure but it was probably something called a "casting or forging lot number" that meant very little except to the contractor and manufacturers. He said it concerned the die used to create the product. All this was followed by a big MAYBE.
He said all kinds of numbers had to be included on raw product and some type of identifications carried over to the finished piece. The government mandated all aerospace grade aluminum have source codes and markings for quality control.
Hmmmm....
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
|
Groundup: Thanks for the information on 820 on the pre-1968 Chouinard Alcoa carabiners. I also posted your Pearbiner photo in the Chouinard carabiner timeline. Thanks for giving me permission to do that.
Now we need a photo of the Marinabiner. It is a large, black, Reverse-Locking D. Anyone want to share a photo with this thread?
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
|
Was there a photo of the oval reverse-locker upthread? I might have one of those in the closet.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
Three feet higher
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
|
An aside about the catalogs, since Marty mentioned them...
I recall two versions of the "72" catalog. My first one had Klocker boots,
but I saw another version that had Haderer boots.
The catalog that I acquired to replace my original had the printed pages
with Klocker boots but the price list insert had the Haderer boots.
There are a couple items on the price list which are not in the actual
catalog pages.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
|
Chiloe: None of the 4 Chouinard Locking D's in the 1983 catalog match his Oval in size and looks. The Pearbiner has nice curves, but looks like its name.
Descriptions are in the first 20 posts. If you've got something different: we would love to see it.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
|
scuffy B: Thanks for mentioning your Chouinard 1972 catalog variations.
Per Marty's post on the subject: the 72 catalog was slighly changed for 73 & 74. I have a 72-74 catalog that also has a "hand-stamped" addition to the price list.
So----how often did the prices change??? With my Outdoor Retailer background: I can't imagine more than twice a year????
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 03:11am PT
|
Also, on a different thread Marty posted a fairly comprehensive guide to figuring out the date of the catalogs which looked almost the same in different years:
1964 - one page list of equipment and prices
1965 - cover: climbers on North America Wall p4
1966? may not exist
1967 - cover: pitons and Yosemite hammer
1968 - cover: ice climber (2 versions)
1969? - probably same as 1968, but with Piolet in price list
1970 - cover: two ice climbers
1971 supplement - cover: single hex
1972 - cover: Japanese water painting; 10,000 catalogs produced; new version possible every quarter 1972-74 (5 of 12 possible versions seen); 1972 version has single column price list, undated
1973 - cover: same; 2 column price list dated 1973
1973 supplement - includes Crack'N Ups (not actually sold until 1975)
1974 - cover: same; price list dated 1974
1975 - cover: Machapuchare; solid hexes on p.8
1976 - cover: same; hexes with lightening holes on p.8; 35,000 catalogs produced
1977 - cover: same; 1977 in History list with Featherweight carabiner
1978 - cover: Cerro Torre
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 09:56am PT
|
Happy to add one more, from the bottom of my closet:
An oval reverse-locker which must be a contemporary of the D reverse seen earlier.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2010 - 10:50am PT
|
Chiloe: OMG "I Ain't never seen one of them!" (as we say in Idaho)
In the History of Chouinard Firsts in the 1983 catalog, Reverse-locking carabiners are mentioned as happening in 1982.
Since, I don't own a 1982 Chouinard catalog, I don't know if that Oval was in that catalog.
Anyone out there with a 1982 Chouinard catalog? If so, it would be great to see a photo or scan of the page with reverse-locking biners.
Thanks Chiloe! Woohoo!
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
|
1982 Chouinard Catalog:
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
|
These Carabiners were given to me by Art Christiansen. He said these were the first run of Chouinard Carabiners, but they could be model III since it seems the Model I and II may have been testers which created the Model III?
Rock on! Marty
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
|
Marty: Thanks for the shots from the Chouinard 1982 catalog. There's that Oval locker, that I didn't know existed until today.
May I post that catalog shot in the carabiner timeline, with due credit to you?
Also, thanks for posting the Chouinard Alcoa closeups. I think that first photo is the best closeup I've ever seen of one of those.
Chiloe: Likewise, may I post your Locking Oval photos in the timeline?
Thanks gents! Fritz
|
|
groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
|
thought you might like a better picture of a Chouinard rope bag.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
|
Yes, Marty's photos of the 1957/58 Chouinard are the best I've seen also (and also the best condition - no surprise there, as you want the best condition in the collection!
[although gear with no scratches makes us feel a little sad as climbers :-) ] ).
Thanks for the catalog shots, which are key for making such a timeline.
Nice locking oval, Larry - I don't think I have ever seen one of those before.
|
|
groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
|
Hope this doesn't complicate anything but here are sharper pictures of the ALCOA I posted earlier:
and this last one shows a seam that wasn't finished under the gate hinge
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
|
Chiloe: Likewise, may I post your Locking Oval photos in the timeline?
But of course! You're doing the community a service here.
I might have one more surprise.
Back into the wayback machine, I mean the climbing closet, tonight.
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
|
Nov 30, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
|
Great thread!
I have these two ancient Chouinard hollow biners.
They are pitted and corroded. Any suggestions on how I can clean them up?
Sorry about picture quality.
Also, when did Chouinard move piton production, specifically Lost Arrows, overseas?
Thanks,
Gene
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!