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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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In MY words, "You have no standing, just an opinion that is worth squat."
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:09am PT
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Fair enough, since you asked:
http://www.mtstandard.com/news/local/article_ab2587fc-dbf7-11df-a1d0-001cc4c002e0.html
Feds shoot, kill wolves
Federal trappers shot and killed three wolves last week that had repeatedly killed sheep in the Blacktail Valley south of Dillon.
The wolves had killed four adult ewes over two days when they were spotted in the private pasture in the Rock Creek drainage, said Carolyn Sime, wolf program coordinator for the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks. Trappers from the air spotted four wolves and shot three black wolves before the fourth one, a gray wolf, escaped.
Sime said the wolves were responsible for an attack on sheep in June, when they killed five ewes and four lambs in
the area. She said the sheep rancher had taken steps to keep wolves away but the predators were persistent.
"This producer had stepped up efforts with dogs and herders," she said. "Despite all the non-lethal tools, the wolves figured this out and it wasn't going to stop."
Three ewes were killed and one was injured on the ranch on Oct. 7. Another attack occurred on Oct. 14, when one ewe was killed, and FWP authorized that any wolves seen in the pasture be killed.
The livestock attacks occurred on the property of Jon and Kathy Konen, who last year lost more than 120 sheep to wolves in a single attack. State officials later removed the entire Sage Creek pack after the attacks continued.
Wolves returned to the area within a year. Sime said the wolves were a new pack and not members of the Horn Mountain or Horse Creek packs that were living in the Gravelly Mountains. Both of those packs were killed by
federal trappers in the past year after repeated livestock attacks in the Madison Valley.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:14am PT
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AC,
its hard for a city boy to unnerstand that some folks are still trying to "live off the land" so to speak. ranching, farming, etc.
if they were my sheep i would have gone wolf hunting and not told anyone, but there are "civilized" consequences for that type fo behaviour as well....
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:15am PT
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Care for some Federal termite infestation in your house foundation?
After all, they're good for the environment and are natural predators.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:22am PT
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ede, the one thing i will agree with RJ on is that peeps who see the hollywood sign everyday dont have a clue about natural selection or how some folks are trying to eek out a living raising sheep cattle etc.
the same farmers/ranchers who should be applauded by raising their stock in a great free roaming environment take it in the chops for not being able to protect their investment against predators.
but thats how some people want it. gives AC and others something to bitch about while they are busy stuck in the freeway traffic but espousing their knowledge of natural selection and other great topics they have no clue about..
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:33am PT
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understood AC.
my grandparents were sheep herders and my dad was a vet.
they are not all lazy. just as you would not like to be robbed, some of the farmers/ranchers dont like their stock killed without having the abilitity to retaliate.
i have hunted/fished/climbed and taken care of sheep (not in the way locker might think!) for years and i can feel their frustation.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:36am PT
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Wool growers, as you put them AC, account for only a percentage of the wolf kills.
If you've ever had Angus beef, then you'd certainly appreciate it that wolves didn't take away your dinner from you.
Where one lives currently is important, and if you don't have a chance to encounter predators when venturing out, then maybe you ought to.
edit: AC sir, just because you want a specific number to argue doesn't mean that my point (not opinion) is not valid--it just proves your ability to try to continue to argue a weak opinion. It's all good, at least in my area we only have to deal with 4-legged killers and not the bi-pedal ones:-)
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:43am PT
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You know how to do a "search", Crowley.
Try the Montana Standard, Billings Gazette, Bozeman Daily Chronicle, the Helena Independent, or the Missoulian.
Pretty simple to get the numbers that YOU need--I really don't give a shite on the amount of compensation that the Federal government comes up with.
edit: honestly, AC--being old doesn't always make you wise, usually it just makes you old and out of touch
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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i dunno guys.
what i do know is that this year alone i have seen and heard wolves while out in the woods. it's a pain in the ass for me to carry my lightweight 357 but sometimes i am glad to have it. even though most of the time the real reason for having it is cuz of some two legged as#@&%e and not a 4 legged predator. but the reality is that i will never really need it, kind of like the old leader must not fall strategy that we used to live by.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:45am PT
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What "backpost" ?
edit: And precisely/exactly how are you "familiar" with this issue, sir Crowley--inquiring minds want to know...
Know some ranchers with killed livestock, been in the ranching game yourself, investigated wolf predation? AND how do you know more than any of us ('cept for telling us you do) ?
Certainly, an expert as yourself can quantify YOUR opinions.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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AC,
you prolly need to try one of those sex sites to let of some steam. positive benefits for a a shady bizness...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2010 - 02:20am PT
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lol.
AC, wolves dont need much help. coyotes dont need much help.
the first wolves i saw were cubs. in WA, where they had never been reported near Mt. Adams in SE WA
they were in an active logging area. my first reaction was to report to the forest service that there was an endangered species in the logging area. then wisdom preavailed. hell, if a species can prevail in an area like that then they dont need a hell of a lot of protection.
there are less elk in MT near jellystone. man, unfortunately, seems to like screwing with nature whether it is killing wolves or reintroducing them. and man still has their collective head up their ass on how to do things right. would you trust your future on a government that can't balance their checkbook? let alone deciding who and what dies.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 14, 2010 - 02:40am PT
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Rokjox may have already posted some of these...showing severe declines in Idaho wildlife counts, in some wildlife mangement areas, since the introduction of the Mackenzie Valley subspecies of wolf. Such stats get wide circulation in Idaho newspapers.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2010 - 02:46am PT
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i agree with your point jennie.
it is difficult to deduce the dwindling wildlife numbers while stuck in california traffic jams. i mean hey, if i were stuck in traffic i would want a wolf to cross the road too.
damn, where is RJ when you need him. guess his blather about "winning" "beating pate" etc. tired him out....i figured him more of a stayer but he is being a quitter here on his favorite topic!
edit:
i spend lots of time near the madison river, in mT. there are less elk recently. scientific observation over 25 years. the most elk i see are behind fences....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 14, 2010 - 04:08am PT
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Tom and pc-
Agreed that slaughter houses are hideous places, but we do have laws governing how livestock can be killed, as well as government inspectors, and undercover humane society investigators to try to insure that the killing is as humane as possible.
If you had read the wolves and livestock article I posted you would have discovered that wolves don't just kill for food, but also maim and kill for sport. The ranchers weren't just distressed by the financial loss but also by coming upon livestock still alive and in agony because their legs had been chewed off or they had been disemboweled but were not yet dead. Not to mention the trained and cared for ranch dogs that have suffered the same fate.
If you don't care about the livestock at least have some compassion on the working dogs who gave their lives to protect the herds.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2010 - 07:56am PT
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tell us how you really think reilly!
i would rather live in ID than CA any day. i am not fond of all the idjits you have. but i suppose that CA is rocjox free.....
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 14, 2010 - 08:31am PT
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Bison get the same reception, don't they? 60 million strong, the fertilizers of the great plains..self contained, doing their thing, until they got in the way of Manifest Destiny, that is. Like the indians, and like the wolves. One can only imagine what it all looked like before "progress". Damn our species is brutal.
"No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast."
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:02am PT
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There's too much livestock as it is...
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:05am PT
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That's right, we've been sanctioned by GOD to use nature as we see fit. No living in balance with ecosystems, just pure domination fueled by that one enduring european trait that brings this country together: the acquisiton of wealth. God help it if anything stands in our way, two-legged or four-legged.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 10:19am PT
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Wow! I see a lot of comment while I was sleeping last night.
A question was posed; How much does a rancher get reimbursed for the loss of...? I've lost calves that had, at birth, a cash value of $200.00, and never received a dime from G & F. The State Game and Fish have a "predation fund," that supposedly covers wolf, lion, and bear kills of domestic livestock; I think it's $10-20 for a lamb, and $50 for a calf; these figures are about 25% of the value of a live animal by todays valuations. Absurdly low, in other words. I don't even bother. There is such a bureaucratic hassle/process to go through that it isn't really worth the time involved.
For the rancher in Montana to lose 178 sheep in one night, that's disasterous! A full-grown ewe has a value of ~$100.00 and a lamb ready for slaughter is ~$50-70 depending on the market; do the math. It's at least a $9,000 loss in just one incident! I applaud Montana's State Senator for his stand, although I'm not sure the extended liability portion of the bill has any chance of enforcement.
As an edit, I changed one word above from "wildlife" to "domestic livestock," which was erronious in fact.
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