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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 24, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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I think passing the buck does nothing to help the problem.
So what if it's the "circle of valley climbers" or Japanese or what ever.
Makes no difference.
Not taking responsiblity for oneself is the issue.
The issue behind figuring how who is littering is relevant because we have to figure out how to reach them with education and communication. Why are people still doing this? I'm figuring if there is some common denominator behind the trash, we can figure out how to to reach them
It's not a matter of self responsibility if one is already packing our sh#t and trash out.
Peace
karl
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 24, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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It's a wonder such lazy people can even make it that far up El Cap...
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
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I think the idea of packing out ALL your trash should constantly hammered home anytime climbing is discussed! I don't believe it is any one group but that is it some people from every group.
We should hammer on Black Diamond, Patagonia and all the other climbing sponsors to get their climbers to make it a main talking point.
Sure, let Tommy hang out on the Dawn Wall/Mescalito for weeks and weeks. I'll be the first to sing his praise if I hear and read that they removed and hauled to the top all sort of garbage they did not generate, that they left the route cleaner than they found it, that they scoured the trail on their many trips up and down East Ledges and removed a ton of stuff.
Just so you all know, given that I'm getting older by the day, I won't be hiking my loads down from the top of El Cap anymore. I'm willing to pay someone to do it for me. Given that, I'm planning on hauling a small extra haul bag to hold any garbage I can get my hands on. I'll be emptying and crushing and removing any water bottles I find at the base, on the route and on top and will be cutting off any and all slings and ropes I find anywhere on the route (and yes I did remove only the slings I personally did not use on the Shield recently).
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Brian
climber
California
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Oct 24, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
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This is one of many reasons it kills me that people think climbers are environmentalists. Unfortunately, as in the general population, only a small percentage of climbers really care for the environment.
Recreating in the wild does not mean loving the wild, otherwise ORV riders would qualify. The trash I've seen in Yosemite, in high-use areas in the Sierra backcountry, in areas in Colorado, and so on and so on is a fecking scandal, and it flies in the face of claims that "climbers can police themselves" from the Access Fund and other organizations.
Climbers can't, or won't, police themselves because only a small percentage of climbers even have a coherent environmental ethic, and large percentage of that small percentage is unwilling to criticize the climbers who are the problem. As I've said in other threads (after the fairly recent debacle at in Little Slide Canyon at the base of the Hulk), most climbers are afraid to appear "uptight" or "uncool" by calling out other folks who are trashing nature.
We should always try education first, but if you are unwilling to really shame (publicly), ostracize (socially), and penalize (legally) the characters who resist gentle education you are not doing enough to help. Yes, this means you need to be the "dick" that yells at other climbers for being fecking idiots. Yes, this means you need to be the "uptight" person who won't climb with people who toss sh#t from the wall. And, YES, this means you need to be willing, in certain situations, to rat on climbers and turn them in to the rangers.
Bravo to Mark for cleaning up on El Cap.
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John Fine
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 25, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
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Jesse, when we met him at the summit with his 10 foot long garbage cleaning tool, said that he had excavated Camp 6 from ledge level as far as his stick would reach, down to trash from the 70's (his best guess based on examining it).
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John Fine
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 25, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Oct 25, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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I think the idea of packing out ALL your trash should constantly hammered home anytime climbing is discussed! I don't believe it is any one group but that is it some people from every group.
We should hammer on Black Diamond, Patagonia and all the other climbing sponsors to get their climbers to make it a main talking point.
I don't think this issue gets raised enough. Let's face it, there are way more climbers now than even 20 yrs. ago. Now that more and more businesses--manufacturers, gyms, even guides--are able to make a living off of climbing, I believe they have a duty to make sure all these new climbers they're spawning or enabling be educated to protect, not trash, the crags.
I did the Shield in 1991 and it was pretty darn clean at the time, even Freeblast and the Muir portions. However, the folks in Camp 4 said that we may have been the first ascent that spring, so that could explain it.
I think it may be unfair to point to newer climbers as the culprits, but the easier the routes get, the more traffic they receive and more riff raff who are more interested in getting their bragging rights than in leaving the route cleaner than they found it.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 25, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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Mark,
Do you dump the pee on top or dispose of it once you are down in the Valley?
g
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Oct 25, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
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Climbers used to have roots in the idea( among others) of wilderness. Out of this came an enlightenment concerning environmentalism and a wilderness ethic emerged.
As our numbers grew, the desire for the first __ ( fill in the blank) has left a newer generations, generally speaking, with less and less emphasis on those old environmental mores and more focus on ego building. In the bigger picture, this is the natural progression of things, such as it is.
Having said that, I feel embarrassed by the amount of trash left in our "playgrounds". We honor ourselves by honoring the wilderness, be it the vacant lot across the street or the vertical wilderness of Yosemite.
There was once a saying, "think globally, act locally".
As self appointed tillermen on this thin raft floating through space, we are not doing such a good job: locally or globally.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
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Dumped it out on top in a few different far off patches of bushes.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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Just as an FYI, when my gym takes noobs outdoors, including kids from our youth team, we allways take the time to give a little shpeal on the leave no trace ethic, and how it specifically aplies to climbing.
I think this should be standard practice of all guides/instructors.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
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So if I get this straight, Mark wants to pay someone to carry his stuff down for him. How does this guarantee that all this trash he plans to pick up will truly make it to the trash?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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Ah, because of my personal integrity and I'll make sure it does.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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Mark seems a thorough person. I suspect he'd either get help from people personally known to him as trustworthy, or accompany whoever he got to help to the recycling and garbage disposal. Plus have it all pre-sorted.
(He beat me to it, just.)
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John Fine
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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How about equipping select belays (Camp VI, Mammoth, Chieftain, etc) with small, tough, laminated Do Not Litter signs, in the Euro symbols-only style? Zip-tied to a bolt hanger, or maybe even on the end of a thin swage to be low profile. With Park Service approval to avoid removal.
Something like this, but professionally designed:
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
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Mark, thanks for cleaning up the route and bringing up conservation as an aspect of our sport. Oh yea, great work getting back on the walls and having fun!
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Oct 26, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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RIGHT ON Mark!!!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 26, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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Maybe a good immage for the sign would be of an Ironworker wringing the neck of a skinny Euro litter-phile.
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matty
Trad climber
los arbor
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Oct 26, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
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F*#k putting signs up on el cap, I go there to get away from signs.
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