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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Sep 28, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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Thats so lame its unbelievable. If they were in the right they wouldn't have taken it down. Thats one company I'll never order gear from.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Sep 28, 2010 - 01:32am PT
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Ok, so the other thing I was wondering about was the rights you gave away by posting on RC.com. Their terms are as follows:
(H) By publishing or submitting any content including, articles, stories, postings and photographs to any part of Rockclimbing.com you give permission that such content may be used at the sole discretion of Rockclimbing.com anywhere else on the site, for any purpose, in its original or edited form, at any time in the future. Content will not be sold without permission of the original author or owner.
So RC.com can use your images on their site, but cannot sell or distribute your images to third parties without your consent. Therefore, if indeed BC.com took your image from RC.com without permission they are willfully infringing on your copyright and/or guilty of digital theft, which carries a much larger fine. However if you are not in the business of selling photos it is going to be hard to establish damages/loss of income as a result of their use. Its probably a wash at this point and not worth pursuing, just frustrating. But after all, you didn't create the photo to begin with.
There is an interesting/relevant case going to court right now that is worth watching if you are interested in this stuff...
http://nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2010/09/morel.html
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 01:48am PT
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First they replaced it with a picture of a tiny climber (circled) on a huge cliff, then the guy "Rocky Thompson" (who runs the blog as far as I can tell) wrote a patronizing comment. Then he changed it to what Jerry captured above.
Real winners eh?
Edit: I will also never do business with them, and recommend the same to others.
Josh
Anyone curious, here's the photo that was used originally:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos/Detailed/95069.html
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 01:58am PT
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Jerry, I guess I didn't say it explicitly earlier, but I'm not planning on pursuing it further. My pursuit of the issue consisted of two e-mails informing them politely they used the photograph without permission/illegally and asking if they intended to provide compensation. I'd rather go climbing than spend the time pursuing it. You're right Jerry, I don't make money off my photographs, but I mentioned specifically in my e-mail that there are people who do for a living.
Josh
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Sep 28, 2010 - 02:04am PT
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That's OK.
You stood up for your principles, and you gained some experience.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 28, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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Probably the best outcome you could hope for. The shooter wasn't in the business of selling photos (and you weren't the shooter), so financial compensation was never all that likely. But the offending party has taken the image down, and maybe in the future they won't grab other people's images without asking permission.
Which, really, is usually all that it takes. Most of what I use in my publications is made available to me for the express purpose of publishing, but once in a while when I see an image on the web that I'd like to use, I ask permission -- and guess what: No one has ever refused. We don't offer payment, but we do offer credit and occasionally we'll offer a subscription. But most amateur photographers are thrilled to have their photos used, and asking permission is usually all that is required.
And if someone says "No," or asks a price that is beyond our ability to pay, we thank them and do not use their images.
It's pretty simple, really.
D
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 02:22am PT
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I told them that if they had asked, we wouldn't have minded them using the photograph. My friends and I have all kinds of requests for pictures ranging from AAJ to a Tasmanian artist, and we always say yes.
Josh
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Sep 28, 2010 - 09:59am PT
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That blogger sounds like a pretentious a-hole. I wonder what he would think if you did the same thing with his all important blog? He would probably be a tad po'd.
I bet late at night he wears lycra.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 28, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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Rocky Thompson- Rock Exotica?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Sep 28, 2010 - 10:45am PT
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Here is your answer:
http://thegoat.backcountry.com/2010/09/24/the-next-great-rock-climber/
FWIW
bc.com contacted me once and asked if I had any photos from Gulmarg (Kashmir) of skiing and I sent them one.
They were real gracious about it and credited me when it appeared on their site.
I never expected any $.
But truth be told I don't make my living from Photography so it wasn't a big deal I thought.
However, I do believe in giving credit where credit is due.
Cheers,
DD
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
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Wow... just wow...
I got an e-mail from backcountry.com. They apologized, told me about their policy of "always" citing sources when they take pictures for the blog, which they apparently don't, and among other things informed me that the response on the blog was not unethical. I guess stealing then lying about it when caught is now ethical in corporate America?
I figured that Rocky was just kinda doing his own thing under the radar, but apparently that response has management's stamp of approval.
Josh
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C4er
climber
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Sep 28, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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If someone photographs (non staged, non professional) a climber, and the photographer subsequently GIVES the rights to that photo to be published, without consent of the climber, does the climber have any legal rights to be compensated for the published photo from the publisher?
If so, does it matter if the subject gave consent to be photographed even if he did not give specific permission to be used in a commercial application?
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Sep 28, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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If someone photographs (non staged, non professional) a climber, and the photographer subsequently GIVES the rights to that photo to be published, without consent of the climber, does the climber have any legal rights to be compensated for the published photo from the publisher?
If so, does it matter if the subject gave consent to be photographed even if he did not give specific permission to be used in a commercial application?
A model release is required 100% of the time for any image where a person is recognizable and it's used in a commercial application. Without a signed consent, the photographer and any company that used the image are liable for damages, which can be substantial. Even if the photog gives the image away, he/she and the company can be sued.
OTOH if it's in a public place where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, no model release is required for editorial use. So a climber on public land is fair game for use inside a magazine. But used on the cover, it becomes advertising and smart people have model releases. If the climber is on private land, that's a whole nother can o worms.
In all cases, the photographer retains copyright unless they signed a work-for-hire contract (dumb) or are an employee. Beyond those exceptions, the only way to lose your copyright is to sell it, hopefully for an outrageous sum of money.
Backcountry.com are thieves an liars but there's little that can be done about their dishonesty unless the copyright holder follows through with registering and lawyering up. Spend your money as you wish.
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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Sep 28, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
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"I've always been under the impression that, unless you put come kind of block on something, so that it cannot be saved to someones computer.. that it's fair game."
That would mean everything is fair game. It is impossible to stop practically anything (let alone a pic) you post on the internet from being saved by a 3rd party. There is always a way to get a copy of something. Those scripts that stop you from right clicking are a waste of time and resource. The only way to prevent it, is to never put it out there to begin with.
Past that, your best bet would be some kind of watermark if it really matters that much. I think this particular incident is much ado about nothing for the most part.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
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You're right. It was for the most part much ado about nothing. But, I learned quite a bit about the laws governing photographs, and had an interesting experience.
Josh
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C4er
climber
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Sep 28, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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My question is a bit different from the situation with Josh.
To be specific about my question: Say that someone took a photo of his climbing partners on a climb they all did together in 1979 (say Ron Kauk and Max Jones for example) and this climber GIVES this photo for inclusion in a climbing book for historical perspective. Would it be required, by law, to obtain a release from them to include in the book? If so, what sort of "damages" could be claimed against the photographer (one of the climbers) and/or against the book author if there was no specific photo release available?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 28, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
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I just went over to backcountry.com and saw how they responded. I thought it was unprofessional and unclassy. Rocky Thompson is a scumbag and I won't buy from backcountry.com again.
On the home page, there is a list of "Backcountry.com's Sponsored Athletes." Why these people would want to be associated with a shady outfit like this, I don't understand. They should reconsider.
Andrew McLean
Andy Jacobsen
Cedar Wright
Chris Davenport
Chris Tatsuno
Cody Barnhill
Drew Tabke
Erik Roner
Evan Stevens
Greg Hill
Grete Eliassen
Ingrid Backstrom
Kim Havell
Jackie Passo
Jenn Berg
Jamey Parks
Jeremy Jones
Jess McMillan
Julian Carr
Julia Niles
Karl Meltzer
Matt Hart
Nick Devore
Noah Howell
Renan Ozturk
Sage Cattabriga-Alosa
Steph Davis
Stephen Koch
Tyson Bolduc
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Sep 28, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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I never heard of any of those guys, except maybe one.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Sep 28, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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C4er, the short answer is no. If the photo, and more specifically the image of a recognizable individual in the photo, was being used in an ad campaign or to directly sell a product, then probably yes, they should have a release as the person's likeness is being used for direct commercial gain. An editorial book or magazine is usually not considered a commercial use and a release is probably not required, but a good idea still just to cover your bases. This goes for the cover too, even though it is the key position on the publication and demands the highest space rate. Usually a cover shot is associated with an editorial piece inside. That said, if you have an editorial picture of somebody doing something illicit or defaming, you better get a release. Each situation is slightly different, which adds to the complexity.
If so, what sort of "damages" could be claimed against the photographer (one of the climbers) and/or against the book author if there was no specific photo release available? I don't know. That's a good question.
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