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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Aug 31, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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Well Base... got to agree with you about the penalty for base jumping being way too harsh... no doubt about that one... as far as friendship goes however .... who are you to judge who is or is not a friend of mine. Who made your standard of friendship the only standard? Just because a person is a climber or even a friend doesn't mean blind loyalty.
Look what it brought us in the Chongo incident.... what did that blind friendship bring... at least 3 famous climbers/jumpers went into Federal court and lied under oath so that Chongo wouldn't get convicted of a crime he did openly for years. What resulted from that so called "sticking up for a buddy"? Those climbers word is now worthless in a court of law in Yosemite and as they were high profile climbers/jumpers they tainted all climbers/jumpers by association. And you wonder why we don't get any respect from law enforcement?
So I do wish my good friend Ammon the very best of luck in his coming legal adventures but I am not going to support what he did as I think he probably did the wrong thing, assuming he did resist arrest. Base.... it is called "integrity". You might want to look it up. And like some of my Christian friends say, and I am far from being one of them, "Love the sinner, hate the sin".
I may not agree with what he did but he is a good friend and I wish him all the best.
Like I said above... I agree 100% with you about the punishment for jumping being way too harsh.. Not good. But all your ranting about law inforcement and name calling etc is not productive and in fact weakens your argument.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dog's are harmless, should they be allowed to roam National Parks unleashed? Oh, I forgot, they have a penchant for chasing wildlife. Rules are rules- some are good, some are questionable. The way to change a rule is through an intelligent presentation of your argument. Flaunting the rule is usually a bad strategy.
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BASE1361
climber
F*#k the LEO's
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jstan.... you're clueless. Sorry to break the news to you.
graniteclimber.... there is nothing like El Cap. You know this even as a climber.
Tom aka elcap pics. Spot on. I agree with you.
Todd E.... yes it is breaking rules. Outdates and antiquated rules they may be. But it is a permitted activity under current CFR regulations. So if you decide to camp without a permit and I was an LEO, is it ok if I wake you up by spraying mace in your face, confiscate your bivy gear, confiscate your phone, car and fine you 2k???
After all you are breaking the law camping without a permit.
Or how about you go hike 1/2 dome without a permit? Can I taser you on the summit or do you prefer the BASE? :)
J/k
It really is a mute point.
Funny thing is not one person has yet to tell me or anyone who the victim is with this so called "crime" that someone committed in which they were unjustly tasered.
Who was the victim when he jumped??
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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The administrative discretion of the park manager determines whether an activity is allowed in a given Park. While the CFRs may not prohibit the activity across the board on both public or private lands, it is the park managers' decision how to regulate activities within their administrative boundaries.
The behavior of those that want to buck the system could cause the Park Service to re-visit the issue at the cfr level and result in stronger regulations prohibiting base jumping in specific or all NPS sites. There could also be issues with the Wilderness Act as it applies to the NPS system.
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jstan
climber
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Clueless am I?
Were you the one who pointed out with fanfare that Jan Davis in 1999 was the last fatality on El Cap?
You are telling us it is risk free. Right?
And ought to be as allowed as hiking. Right?
Can't make up your mind?
Maybe stumbling on the message?
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me....you won't fool me again.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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"Who was the victim when he jumped," a rather clueless argument. We live in a society only made possible by general adherence to rules. Some rules are bad, there are ways to change them, albeit not always successfully. Knowingly breaking rules should be done with the understanding that there might be consequences, albeit not always just.
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BASE1361
climber
F*#k the LEO's
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Jstan.
Did I EVER once say it was risk free? Climb at your own risk, jump at your own risk. You are about to engage in an activity that is prone to injury and possibly death. Does the sport scare you?
Is soloing risk free or do you need an education in that activity as well? We should ban that it the park too since danger is your argument. And climbing too. Because climbers have died on el cap more than BASE jumpers.
Actually now I'm on the subject we should ban climbing. Climbers trash the base and summit of el cap more than any user group in history. Hikers are really the low impact users. There not throwing sh#t, bottles, food and leaving trash at the summit and base. Even with the facelift how much do you not find?
BASE jumpers are like any other user group in the park with the exception of 1 minute or up to 5 minutes of our time used in the park.
Sh#t,.. we actually cut down on 1/2 the trail usage due to the fact were only going one way :)
Again. I'm not for the legalization of the sport. Too many whufo's such as your self would think it's a simple activity. You would do yourself a favor and read the new book out on BASE. It has some very well written articles by climbers who have crossed over into the sport.
So your missing the point jstan.
P.S. read the last line at the Supertopo site at you reply to this message. 2 sentences, 8 words.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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BASE1361, you only started posting to SuperTopo today. You've posted nine times. Your ID says "F*#k the LEO's". You seem to be angry, and venting. No one knows who you really are, or your backstory.
jstan has been an active contributor to SuperTopo for years, and a member and leader of the climbing community for over 50 years. He's personally known to many of us. His work on access and the environment since the 1960s has done a great deal for climbers, and although he doesn't do a lot of climbing now, he's still contributing.
You and jstan may well disagree as to basejumping and its management, and how the recent incident involving Ammon was handled, but that's no reason to be disagreeable. (FWIW, there'll probably always be some climbers who play by "the rules", some who push the limits, and quite a lot who aren't quite sure.) Perhaps you should knock off for the night, relax and have a beer, and come back to it in the morning. But please try to stick to the issues, and show respect for those who are trying to constructively contribute to the debate, even if you disagree with them.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Base 1361... well I was with you there for a while but when you use examples that make no sense then your agrument weakens. I have seen many campers camping illegally and never once have seen one awakened by pepper spray in the face... saying that as the start of your example sort of kills the effectiveness of what you are trying to illustrate. I still contend, until proven wrong, that Ammon was not tased because he was base jumping even though you continue to say it is so. I know of no one who has ever been tased because they were base jumping... please tell me if you do know such a person. There has got to be more to it. In addition I don't think the danger has anything to do with base jumping not being allowed in the park nor should it... all the sh#t we do is way safer than driving to yosemite in a car!
A better example for you to use would be.... "Hey I got a speeding ticket and they took my car!!" Now that would be way excessive punishment for speeding, in any ones eyes, and yet is a similar situation to the one you are trying to analyse.
And I agree fully with those who have rationally pointed out that the punishment for base jumping is way too severe and does not fit the infraction. But when you guys keep on saying base jumping is punished by tasing I just think it makes you look like you can't comprehend the possiblilty that resisting arrest is the reason for the tasing and is at this time a legal restraint to keep the person from resisting. It doesn't matter if we think tasing is a good idea or not as it is LEGAL for LEO's to use at this time. So there you have it... another worthless opinion by someone without an ounce of real knowledge about what actually happened! I like, most of you ... await the truth, without the spin, or lies.
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BASE1361
climber
F*#k the LEO's
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mighty... for obvious reasons I cannot state who I am. I am an active of the climbing community, good friends to many climbers. Just due to the fact that I just started posting today is pointless. You know why I will not say my name. It seems the activity that climbing brought me to is also one that another person might end up killing me for because I jumped off something.
There is an increasing number of climbers crossing over into BASE. Each member of the new community has his/her reason for entering the sport.
Playing the danger card with BASE is no different than those who wish to free solo Astroman. You slip, you fall, you die. Free soloing is a game in which there are a limited number of people who chose to do it, and each one understands the consequences if they fail. BASE is no different.
Jstan was implying that I sated somewhere that BASE was safe when I discussed the last fatality in the park. I never stated that and no BASE jumper will ever tell you it is safe.
I'm simply stating that what resulted in someone having a fun in the pursuit of a passion in a sport was out of line. Something needs to change.
There will be more climbers crossing over and jumpers will never stop jumping.
Mighty... what if all of the sudden the park made it illegal to free solo. Take the same situation and play it out in the climbing world. Would you agree with the LEO's response and the fines that the free soloist would face??
I'm calm my friend. Don't take life too serious.... it's not going to last forever :)
Tom... ElCap pics. Well said. Much respect.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Base you're right, JStan is clueless, he's in love with the smell of his farts. . .
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BASE1361
climber
F*#k the LEO's
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+1 for Radical.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Just keep kicking away at that hornets nest and wonder later why they are glad to tase you.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Based on numerous of my own experiences with the NPS I think there really needs to be an independent civilian review of abuses by park rangers.
Nobody, even them, have the ability to self-police.
There is not sufficient accountability.
Ammon's case sounds like another example of extreme tooling, but I have to wonder if, like the vast majority of other such cases, it will ever result in a lawsuit over civil rights violations.
I've actually jumped through all those hoops and prevailed and let me tell you; IT'S NOT EASY.
What's more, while I won a judgement, my abusers never faced any charges.
The system is stacked against the civilian and for the rangers.
Shameful.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Donini: Rules are rules- some are good, some are questionable. The way to change a rule is through an intelligent presentation of your argument. Flaunting the rule is usually a bad strategy.
Word!
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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If you can tell me that Ammon landed, was told to stop right there, and he put up his hands holding still and the ranger walked up and tazed him, then you have a point. He was "tazed for base jumping".
On the other hand if Ammon landed, was told to stop right there, and took off running, he was tazed for resisting arrest.
Please stop trying to cloud the issue. Thanks.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I was going to reply to the OP, but I see many have already made my points. It sounds like new anonymous base guy you are listening to Tom, I hope you listen to the others.
The victim of BASE jumps in the eyes of the NPS are the thousands of other people whose experience is degraded by base jumping. They are there to view the natural beauty and take photos of it. Most don't want colorful chutes in front of the famous cliffs. Impacting thousands of people's experience so a handfull of people can do their sport isn't a trade off the park service is willing to make.
The great majority of people here are pretty outraged Ammon was tasered for probably fleeing arrest for base.
As I've said I'd like to see it legal and permitted at certain times like Hang Gliding.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Very constructive post Riley. You obviously have a real handle on how to resolve issues. Your rational discussion has made a believer out of me.
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