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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 27, 2010 - 09:23am PT
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If you've just "tagged" and the bag is right next to you, your Gri-gri is on the part of the rope that runs past the bag and down to the anchor. If you have a 60 meter rope (197 feet but let's call it 200) and are 100 feet above the anchor there is 100 feet of rope in the rope bag attached to the Tag Bag. The far end of the rope comes out of the rope bag and is tied into a stout piece via the Slippery Knot.
Got it. Thanks Mark.
Prod.
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10k
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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thanks!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Hey Mark...I'm curious,
Lets say the slack of your lead line got blown in the wind and started zipping out of the rope bag, when it all came out do you think it would be enough of a jolt to untie the slippery knot?
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Nice work explaining the system Mark. I have used it without the backup for quit some time now, but only on nonwindy days on non flakey pitches. Works great, but I certainly can see potential for a huge out of hand cluster.
The crochet knott is what I was missing, and see potential there for a better piece of mind for sure. Nice dialog, nice system refinement. Thanks.
Burly Bob
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 2, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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Lambone,
I actually watched it do that twice. On the traverse/swings over to the Jardine Corners from the top of Grape Race, the rope just started feeding out of the rope bag but caught on the connection knot to the tag line extender on the edge of the rope bag and didn't go any further. Again, on the severely traversing pitch up to the Dawn Wall, the tag line fed out of the rope bag completely and did catch on the slippery knot. I was using 50 feet of 8 mil to extend the tag line and I would really cinch down on the slippery knot. I never had any problem pulling it out but it did not release with the full weight of the rope on it.
I think if you were real worried about it you could tie a two or three foot length of slippery knot. Cinch it down tight and I don't think it would pull out.
Andy Kirkpatrick thinks it's a pretty good method.
Read his comments about using a Petzl Fifi also.
http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/rope_soloing_101_part_4
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Thanks Mark, that is slick! The meeting of the minds PTPP/Chongo in Camp 4 parking lot! That would have been a wild conversation of the rope work possible in the outer limits of space! hahaha
Is that where the method came from, PTPP/Chongo? Anyway, I am going to incorporate it into the mix for sure! I am giving up the clove-hitch method and no longer have to worry about dragging
70M of haul line!!! Yippie!
Thor
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Why the 50ft of 8mil tagline extension? Just so you dindnt need to tag more then once?
Also, ever have problems with the tag bag getting stuck...seems like that could force a rappel mid pitch.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 2, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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Simply so on even a 180 foot pitch, I'd have to tag only once. The tag bag never got stuck. It wasn't so heavy that I couldn't bounce it around and un-stick it anyway.
I just realized that you guys are thinking of the old style/classic Fifi hook. With that hook you have to tie a little loop to its top and then tape that or tie that to your tag line somehow. You're all worried that if the rope should fall out of the slippery knot that it would pull on the TOP of the fifi and rotate it off its anchor.
If you use a Petzl Fifi, there is a slot that you can clip the tag line into but the slot allows the rope to slide to the BOTTOM of the fifi. If the tag line falls out of the slippery knot, the weight of the rope will hit the fifi and apply its weight to the BOTTOM of it!
Get it?
You'll buy a small mallion to clip to the slot and tie the rope into that. I don't use that little hole at all.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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I brought one of these the other day and I have to say that it's a vast improvement on the standard fifi hook. It's the bees knees for tagging.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 2, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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I'm going to do some testing to see how much a bag has to get swinging for the hook to fail.
One technique might be to always hang it on a long sling, that way the sling would also swing. I can't imagine a situation that would cause the bag to bounce straight up and then off?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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bump for COOL.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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Don't forget, soloing a big wall is a thinking persons game. If you don't want to think (and even don't want to think about EVERYTHING) then big wall soloing may not be for you.
I would leave an anchor, get a few feet up and then sit there for five or ten minutes looking at EVERYTHING! The anchor, the haul bags, the haul line rope bag, the tag bag, the tag bag rope line, the slippery knot, EVERYTHING. It's only you up there and you are responsible for you own mistakes.
To solo a wall you should be a creative thinker, at ease with ALL the techniques and able to accept responsibility for your actions.
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Burt
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Hey Mark, thank you for the explaination. Lambone, it is a good system and when the rack is big why haul on your shoulders on a hard pitch? I use a more simple method, I use a 70m haul line, take up about 30-40ft of it tie on a fifi and just put my rack on it. If it falls (never has on me and I have whipped with it on a fifi) it might f you up, but really just a few sets of small cams and some pins aint that much on there. It is nice to not have to have a fully loaded gear sling when the rack for the route calls for big cams, 4 sets of tcu's and pins and you are following a beak crack. So that is why I use it. Like Mark said, soloing is it's own beast do it how you want. Thanks again Mark.
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Yeah Mark, that's why it takes twice as long too!!!
Anyway, I think I might give this a try on my next solo, which with two girls under 2yrs old...may be a little while.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Having recently watched (after a 60' traverse) the leadline whip out of the ropebag, followed by the thankfully light tag bag (slippery knot and all) only to be hung up a couple feet later by the knot between lead and haul rope I think trying to tag on traversing pitches is not worth it. Straight up and down no problems.
Question is...how to limit the propensity of ropes to whip out of ropebags on traverses. I no longer use a continuous loop in such situations as the resulting post-whip loop will be almost a full rope length long. Any other thoughts?
Going to get one of the Petzl hook now......
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
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What about a chain of slippery knots, some slack, another chain and so on?
What about slippery knotting the whole goldang rope and stuffing it into a rope bag?
At some point though, you're going to have to tag and the bag is going to come whipping off the anchor.
Luckily, the vast majority of routes don't have such severe traverses so as to make this problem too big of an issue. I mean, what the hell, take everything you'll think you need, take the haul line and suck it up! You're still out soloing, you're still out on a big wall and you're still not at work!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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When I soloed the Knifeblade Traverse on Iron Hawk [no KBs, rather horizontal LA's tipped in about a quarter-inch and tied off, which held just fine!] I remember doing three or four tags. You can get a feel for when the rope gets heavy enough that it is about the come flying out of the bag, so I tried to tag just before the happened.
I think you guys are right - take everything you have and try not to tag at all, and maybe a giant long chain might be the way to go.
Soloing is a lot of work - I seem to be retired. I wonder what it would take to get me to go give it another shot?
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Pete, you're one new model of blow-up sheep away from a solo. Unless you have partners you like to share that sort of thing with.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Extra loops in the slippery overhand chain, tied tightly, greatly lessen the chance of the knot untying itself when [not if] the rope flies out of the bag on long traverses. This has happened to me plenty, and I didn't really know how to solve the problem. Not that with a tag rack as heavy as mine you'd have to worry about it popping the hook!
Let us know!