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Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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Nice insight.
The Ebay Biner looks really FAT on the curve of the major axis.
I would like to have a full set of biners.
I have them starting from the late 70s.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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knock knock Hennek-you there?
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Dennis Hennek
climber
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The earliest carabiners were drop forged from aluminum stock then trimmed by Alcoa. The finishing, milling of the gate and body, and the final assembly were done at the Skunk Works in Burbank and later in Ventura. The Lost Arrows were drop forged and trimmed in LA to produce what we called blanks that were then hand forged and ground into the various sizes of finished pitons. The hammers were also drop forged and trimmed in LA. Yvon then used the rock hammer heads which he hand forged into the earliest ice hammers. The so called "forged carabiner" on e-bay shouldn't be confused with the hand forging done by Chouinard, Salathe, Long, Cook, and others. The first lost arrows that Yvon forged were made from flat bar stock, anvil, hammer, and coal forge.
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ec
climber
ca
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Thx Dennis!!
 ec
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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I haven't had time till now, to post some earlier information that showed up on Steve's Chouinard 1968 thread. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=382806
First: posted by Brian in SLC is a great photo of the two earliest types of Chouinard carabiner. He believes the Alcoa predated the D on the right, that only is marked Chouinard.
My timeline for the earlier D's is taken from Chouinard catalog histories.
Carabiners: from their product history in the catalogs, Chouinard made his own Carabiners (in Ventura) from 1957 to 1968.
I am sure there were different runs of these. I own some that only say Chouinard, but one was marked Chouinard on one side, and 820 Alcoa 7075 on the other.
1968-1972 they went to a new style that Salewa made. It says Chouinard/Salewa on one-side and 2200 KP on the other. Initially these were not tested for strength, but later ones were tested and stamped that on the gate.
1974 carabiner production went back to US and I think----stayed here.
Those D's are marked: Chouinard USA on one side and 4000 LBS on the other.
By the late 70's the carabiner styles increased to ovals, hollow ovals, and a new D.
Value??? What a collector will pay----but not anywhere close to $250.00.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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$250.00 LMAO
Maybe I do have a retirement fund !
(I have a half dozen)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The nose and the lettering keep growing steadily...
When Yvon first made a carabiner that he would call his own, was it a "modified D" configuration?
Anyone know the duration of production of each generation starting in 1957? Seems like five or six with the 68 version being the fourth generation.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The 1975 GPIW catalog lays out the carabiner succession all the way until 1974 when the fifth generation became a cold formed product pictured below.
The previous four designs were drop forged bodies. The adjective hand forged is a misnomer. The carabiners were finished by hand as Dennis Henneck described until they were made in Germany.
From 1972 to 1974 Salewa made the Chouinard carabiner. The X's are my gear stamp.
Yvon initially went to Alcoa and worked with their engineers to design the first Chouinard carabiner that ironically didn't say Chouinard.
Once Tom came aboard to design and engineer the dies that would allow mass production of Chouinard hardware, he reworked the initial design into the "modified D." This body shape minimized carabiner shift while aiding and key areas were thickened to yield a better gate open strength. This version said both Chouinard and Chouinard/Alcoa as best I can determine and may be considered as two versions.
I asked Tom about the succession of designs and he mentioned that every several years the dies would wear out and that he would tweak the design a little to improve it before making the next batch. The 1968 to 1972 version wasn't very different than the one above to my eye but I think it rounds out the five generations shown in this thread.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 13, 2010 - 11:38am PT
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Could anyone post a shot of the version that is stamped both Chouinard and Alcoa 7075? I think that would be the last of them...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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Steve, the photo of mine that Fritz reposted above has "Alcoa" on one side, and, "Chouinard" on the other of both carabiners on the left.
My bet is biners just marked as "Alcoa" without "Chouinard" are pretty darn hard to find...(never seen or heard of such).
Cheers!
-Brian in SLC
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 13, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
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I am trying to sort out whether or not two different carabiners carried the ALCOA stamp, one with 7075, one without.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 13, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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hey..what's this interesting climbing thread doing here?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 13, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
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I am trying to sort out whether or not two different carabiners carried the ALCOA stamp, one with 7075, one without.
Might just be random. These biners were just made from chopped up rod stock from Alcoa? My bet is some didn't have the material designation on the rod, and, that wouldn't really account for a difference per se?
Are you thinking there were early Chouinard carabiners made from Alcoa stock that was a different material, or, just marked without "7075"?
Cheers, Steve!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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This singularly celebrated carabiner has gone through 8-10 distinct die changes to go along with the five distinct designs. It should be possible to show them all on this thread as lots of people have biners to show.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 28, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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So here is the Dolthut ad for the third Alcoa design release from Summit May 1960. One side shown only.
You guys that have Alcoas could you see if yours have the same markings.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 28, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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Gentleman just added this to his $250 e-bay listing.
"JUST ADDED
YOU ARE NOW NOT ONLY BIDDING ON THIS HISTORIC PIECE, BUT A FAMOUS PIECE THAT HAS BROUGHT SO MUCH CONTROVERSY IN THE CLIMBING COMMUNITY, THAT IT HAS ITS OWN BLOG. $250 IS NOW A STEAL FOR SUCH A FAMOUS PIECE. I AM ADDING THE LINK TO THE BLOG SITE SO YOU CAN CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1235390 "
LOL!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 29, 2010 - 11:22am PT
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I had some dealings with that seller and he is clueless as to actual value. Great thread anyhow!
Nobody is going to even reach $100 since those biners didn't belong to any climber of record.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Nov 21, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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With the onset of winter weather (snowy & cold as Hades in S. Idaho) and a little extra time: I’ve been doing research.
My reference sources are: information on Super Topo, some great help by Clint Cummins, my own memory of carabiners I’ve acquired since 1970, and my collection of Chouinard and Great Pacific Iron Works catalogs.
My catalog set is: 1968, winter 70, 1972, 75-76, 78, 80, 83-85, and 88-89. Chouinard Equipment was purchased by Black Diamond in 1989.
What I have tried to achieve is a “timeline” of when various models of Chouinard carabiners were sold. The great help here is: Until 1984 Chouinard catalogs all had: A History of Chouinard Firsts. The history showed when each significant new piece of gear was introduced.
Unfortunately I own no Chouinard carabiners that predate the 1968 catalog. From previous postings and the Chouinard catalog timeline, we know Chouinard carabiner production started in 1957. It appears there were three-models produced prior to 1968, but all were marked Alcoa.
Here is a link to a thread on ST that has much good information on pre-1968 Chouinard carabiners. http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1235390/Chouinard-Carabiner-Hand-Forged-in-Ventura-Circa-1968
Here is the last Chouinard catalog timeline I could find. It is from the 1983 catalog. Later catalogs do not show the timeline, perhaps to reduce liability for older products failing.
In my photos of carabiners, I note information embossed or stamped on the carabiners in Bold, model of carabiner, dates of production, and weight of carabiner from my digital postal scale.
Carabiner page from Chouinard 1968 catalog.
In what is usually known as the Chouinard 1972 catalog, the 1968 model carabiner is noted as having production moved to the Salewa factory, which was in West Germany.
In June 1972 Chouinard issued a recall on the Chouinard/Salewa carabiners. All recalled carabiners were tested and the gates were stamped tested. All subsequent production of the Chouinard/Salewa carabiner had the gate stamped tested.
Advertisement in Off Belay Magazine, June 1972.
Chiloe posted a photo of one of the very first Tested Chouinard/Salewa carabiner in the Eiger carabiner thread and has kindly allowed me to show it here as well.
From Chiloe: Others, however (I think in the first round of testing), were stamped with a much less distinct "T" before the 2200kp label. You can see the "T" right before the "2" on this one.
After the initial batch of Tested Chouinard/Salewa carabiners were stamped T, later tested carabiners were stamped tested on the gates.
The above carabiners were purchased in 1972, returned to Chouinard for testing, and received back with the tested stamp on the gates.
I have acquired some other Chouinard/Salewa carabiners that have W. Germany stamped on the opposite side of the gate. I am guessing these are from later production and give these a production date of 1973.
The Chouinard timeline notes a new carabiner style in 1974. It is described in the 1975 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog.
(In 1972 Chouinard named the climbing hardware branch of his business: Great Pacific Iron Works).
The real 1974 carabiner.
At this point I get into carabiners that don’t show up in any of my catalogs. Clint Cummins has shared information on two models that are transitional from the 1974 D carabiner to a new model D that debuted in 1978.
The first transitional model looks just like the 1974 D, except the 4000 lbs is replaced with 2100KG.
I do not own an example of the second transitional 2100 KG D, but it looks just like the carabiner that was introduced in 1978.
In the 1978 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog, a new model D is introduced. Clint Cummins caught the fact that the catalog photo was however of the earlier, large nose D.
Note how the nose of the 1978 D is lower in profile than the carabiner shown in the 1978 catalog. The catalog copy notes “the gate latch width has now been made narrower---------.”
In the 1978 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog two entirely new carabiners are also introduced: The Oval and the Featherweight.
The Chouinard timeline shows the Featherweight date of origin as 1977. It is made of hollow aluminum tubing and is very similar to hollow carabiners that Salewa came out with at about the same date.
Salewa also produced the hollow carabiners for Robbins, but it appears the Chouinard Featherweights were produced in the U.S.
The 1980 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog asserts the Featherweights are made from aluminum tubing produced for Boeing.
The Chouinard Oval shows up in 1978.
Ok! I will post more timeline on Chouinard biners produced after 1980 in the near future.
Anyone that wants to trade pre-1968 Chouinard Alcoa carabiners for any two of those I've posted------or maybe for unused pre-1975 Chouinard Lost Arrows: please contact me. I have a decent number of most of these biners. I would also be interested in trading for the carabiner that Clint Cummins shows in his photo.
This information and more on 1980's Chouinard carabiners is now in a "Stand Alone" Thread.
Chouinard carabiner Timeline & Identification Guide- 1968-89
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1327553&tn=0#msg1327553
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