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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 14, 2005 - 11:32am PT
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Oh, billygoat - I don't know what you're smoking, but 5-piece bolts are the easiest to place and hardest to screw-up of any mechanical bolt that climbers use. There's a reason they are super-popular in the construction business - hard to screw up. Wedge/stud bolts are impossible to inspect or even tell if they are wedge bolts - could be something like a threaded spike bolt or other weird bolts. And nearly every wedge bolt you run into is non-stainless and will need to be chopped and replaced with a new bolt in a new hole in another 30 years. Go to Europe and see all the rusty ugly wedge bolts a few inches from a nice glue-in, and you're looking at the future of a lot of crags here. Wedge bolts are popular because climbers are cheap.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 14, 2005 - 03:56pm PT
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Wow, Greg awsome job down at the Pins. Just as a note since someone asked. At least one of the glue ins on Feed The Beast spins just a bit. I was thinking it would have to be replace but it is nice to know that it is bomber. Greg 6" bolts by hand! Once again thank you it is appreciated.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 08:52am PT
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Hey Greg,
I smoke very rarely (it's bad for your lungs), and I don't appreciate you're assuming that I do. However, in a figurative sense, I'll tell you exactly what I'm smoking.
Climbing Magazine No. 134 (October/November 1992) pgs 102-103:
"Torque bolts. We didn't find any dependable torque bolts...which can be strong but...To place a torque bolt you tap the bolt into the hole and then torque it down, spreading an expansion cap at the back of the hole to create a friction hold. Sounds good enough...but the problem is these bolts don't have any leeway for user error. Torque the bolt too tight and you strip the expansion cap [edit: I mistakenly refered to this as the blue plastic thingy, sorry], ruining the placement. Get the bolt too loose and the cap will hold a pull-out load about as well as bubble gum on the end of a nail."
On Pg 102 of that issue, you will find a chart. This chart shows the suitability of various bolt types in soft, medium, and hard rock. None of the listed bolts are good for soft rock. Some of the solid head sleave bolts might be suitable depending on conditions. So we're left with one unlisted possibility: glue-ins.
To your benifit, the article doesn't recommend wedge bolts in soft rock. But to my beni, they do tout their ease of placement. I would also like to remind you that the ASCA (the organization you represent), has made this same point in its literature:
"Torque Bolts: [colon added for clarity]
Torque bolts have a hex or Allen head and a threaded bottom that screws into a lead expansion cone. They are only strong if precisely tightened with a torque wrench, but because most climbers do not use a torque wrench you should consider them all bad." (Chris Macs article "How to Rebolt")
As for Pinnacles rock: the quality does vary. If only glue-ins are suitable, then all other bolts are suspect and I stand by my earlier sentiments about safety in numbers.
Seriously fun having this discussion with you. I have a lot of respect for the work your organization does. Hope we can agree enough that one day you might provide me with some glue-ins to replace some of the f*#ked up anchors I guide off of at the Pinns (eeek!).
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 02:00pm PT
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Oh, the sweet irony. Billygoat, master of assumptions; specialist in pissing off everyone by assuming the worst possible motives and actions. Front man for stirring up crap about people he doesn't even know on issues of which he is ignorant. I quote: "... and I don't appreciate you're assuming that I do." Hey, man, people that live in glass houses, etc. If you can't take it maybe think about dishing it out a little less. Do some checking before you write. Give people a little slack. Your attitude is really too bad. You seem to love Pinns fairly well, and if you treated people a little less shitty, you'd probably make a fine addition to the community of climbers there. I respect your willingness to get involved and care, but that's where my respect ends (at least for now).
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de eee
Mountain climber
Tustin
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Nov 15, 2005 - 02:16pm PT
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I was on a trip to San Fran in 1971 (13 yrs. old)with my Mom and Sister and we stopped in Pinnacles to camp (a long trip in a '59 bug). We went hiking and saw some climbers by the Monolith. They were very friendly and offered me a rope on the "Direct." I was super stoked and ran back to the car to get my climbing shoes (hand me down Kronhoffers) as I hadn't had a chance to climb since my father died 2 yrs before. The route and summit were inspirational and it's been one summit after another till now.
Sorry about deviating from the bolt topic but it was a great memory for me!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 15, 2005 - 03:23pm PT
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billygoat wrote:
>Climbing Magazine No. 134 (October/November 1992) pgs 102-103:
>"Torque bolts. We didn't find any dependable torque bolts...
True, but the torque bolts discussed in that article are 2-piece 1/4" with a lead expansion cone. These were used on some granite routes in the mid-late 80s.
These torque bolts are pretty much unrelated to the Rawlbolt / Powers Power-bolt "5-piece" bolt, which is 3/8" or larger and uses a steel cone and a sleeve.
http://www.powers.com/product_06914.html
That being said, it's still true that there is disagreement among experienced Pinnacles climbers (Tom, Kelly, Bruce, Brad, Clint, Greg, etc.) on whether the 5-piece bolt or wedge bolt is better in Pinnacles rock. We do agree that the nonstainless wedge bolts should not be used. For the main debate, we need more data on failure problems in soft rock. While it's true that a wedge bolt instead of 5-piece would have been easier to inspect at the spot on Feed the Beast where the unscrew type failures occurred, that is an unusual situation/orientation, and that particular spot is of course solved now. Bruce and Greg have described the disadvantages of wedge bolts well, so the question does not have a clear answer, and it's not likely to be answered without some detailed test data.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 15, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
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And that kind sirs is why we call him the "Beta Man".
Bow down and say Thank you.
Thank you
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Nov 15, 2005 - 03:43pm PT
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On another note.
Billgoat,
In one of these posts you stated that you freed Son of Dawn Wall. I think. I'm possibly mistaken. If so did you mean the 1st pitch or the entire route? It is my understanding that the bolt ladder has yet to be free climbed. Did you free the bolt ladder or is it still waiting for someone to free climb it?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:05pm PT
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"We" don't call him the "Beta man." We call him "the Keeper of all Knowledge." Good man either way.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:42pm PT
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Clint Cummins has always been a great source for information.
Can someone buy that guy a beer?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:52pm PT
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Billygoat,
you mentioned that there are some f*cked anchors on routes which you guide. As someone who has replaced over 75 anchors at the Pinnacles, I would be very interested in knowing specific details such as the location and why you think that specific anchor is bad.
Bruce
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:54pm PT
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mud,
nope, never stated that.
Brad,
Whatever. I wasn't aware that you decided who is part of the exclusive "Community of Pinnacles Climbers Club." But now that I know, I'll keep that in mind. As for the rest of the folks, I think we get along alright. I suppose they would rather speak for themselves, though. I hope if I've gravely offended anyone, they can approach me and work it out.
I find it funny that you felt so compeled to respond to a post that wasn't even directed at you. Seems to show how vulnerable you are to criticism. I know my rhetoric is strong, and perhaps heavyhanded. That's part of the "Billygoat" image, but I don't think that represents me as a whole. I'm sure we'll meet someday, and it's quite possible we'll get along just fine. I, for one, hope so.
Clint--
Good point on the article. Although they do discuss the difficulties of trusting torque bolts w/out a lead cone (I believe it's on the following pages). Also, the ASCA does not recomend trusting them, and that's certainly current trade info.
Properly placed, nobody will deny that a torque bolt rocks. The real point is, unless you placed it, you have no way of knowing. Of course, you never really know 100% what's going to happen. But I know I'm not alone in feeling more comfortable on wedge anchors.
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billygoat
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:55pm PT
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Bruce,
Just saw your post. I need to go to work, but I'll definitely get back to you.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 04:57pm PT
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Hardman, I don't think he drinks. Instead give him food or found booty.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 05:24pm PT
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Billygoat (Justin?): yeah, your "rhetoric" is strong and heavy handed. But a lot if it is just plain stupid. I don't know what kind of "image" it is that you covet, but maybe others don't see you as you see yourself. I don't give much of rip about your "criticism" which isn't credible to start with. What bothers me is why someone who seems to have been around a bit just doesn't care about insulting people right and left. It's curiosity. Is it a sport for you? How can it not "represent you as a whole?" when it's all of you any of us know? With due respect, I doubt that we would "get along just fine" in person unless in person your remarkably different than this "image" you struggle so hard to foster. Good luck, you'll need it. Now, sorry to digress. I promise to leave you alone if we can get back to the subject at hand.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 05:47pm PT
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Oh now I get it, "torque bolts" in those articles are better known (well, at least more accurately known) as USE Diamond Taper bolts. Not related at all to 5-piece bolts.
Diamond Tapers were somewhat common around the '88-90 time period (at least on CA granite), not trustworthy especially in pull-out, although they seem to be fairly strong in the 3/8" version. Bachar liked the 3/8" ones, you'll find them on the original bolts on Peace (aka Die Hard) on Medlicott, the anchor on Trifle Tower near Mammoth, on several Bachar routes at Owens River Gorge, etc. Sometimes with hex head, sometimes with an eye bolt head (look like glue-ins). I've replaced maybe 10 of the 3/8" ones - pulled one cleanly at an anchor ('89 Errett Allen route at Benton), but the rest I just unscrewed and drilled through the lead sleeve.
But in the 1/4" version, they are wicked unpredictable. I've probably pulled around 50-75 of those, some were hard to pull, but most rip right out, and the good ones would be right next to the bad ones on the same route. Most of the time the lead sleeve stays in the hole and there's just a bit of lead in the threads of the bolt. It's easy to drill through the lead sleeve even with a hand drill, as long as your new bolt is larger diameter - the surrounding rock keeps the drill bit from sinking into the lead sleeve. If you try to hand drill through a 3/8" lead sleeve with a 3/8" drill bit, forget it.
The hex-head 1/4" Diamond Tapers look kind of like a 3/8" 5-piece at first glance (slightly smaller and half the hex head depth), and the 3/8" version look very similar to a 1/2" 5-piece head. You'll see both versions with allen key heads every once in a while.
If you do use stud/wedge bolts, at least use stainless. As Clint said, some Pinnacles regulars swear by them and never use 5-piece, while others are the opposite.
Oh - by the way - just because you see threads and a nut doesn't mean that it's a wedge/stud bolt - thread-head 3/8" split-shaft compression bolts were used on a number of popular routes at Pinnacles. I pulled several of those, and most just grooved a slot into the rock as they were pounded in, so removing them was super-easy. But a couple were actually compressed on the Verdict - better rock (and a LOT longer time hand-drilling on that one for the three 6" glue-ins I used). Rubine has those bolts noted in his index ('3/8" split shaft'). The pull-out strength of those bolts in most Pinnacles rock is very low, if you hang on one or rap off one, load in shear, don't pull straight out (a good recommendation for any questionable bolt).
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Nov 15, 2005 - 06:04pm PT
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OK, Greg, people who know you respect your opinion highly. What bolts are preferred then for Pinns: A) When establishing a route on lead; and B) When rebolting? (I didn't quite track your comments about glue ins that might work on lead). Carbon steel (higher sheer strength?) Or stainless? (not as subject to rust.) Also, given that probably the majority of bolts at Pinns are now Rawl 5 Piece is there a major problem, or an occasional, low probabilty set of risks? Please provide explanations of your opinions. (This examination will comprise half your final semester grade.)
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 15, 2005 - 06:05pm PT
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Mud - I mentioned that I had freed the bolt ladder on Son of Dawn Wall. Since I don't have Rubines' guide I'm not sure if it was Son or Bolt Ladder route next door(Gagner 83')
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 15, 2005 - 06:10pm PT
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mynameismud (DES, my long time Pinnacles FA partner!) wrote:
>In one of these posts you stated that you freed Son of Dawn Wall. I think. I'm possibly mistaken. If so did you mean the 1st pitch or the entire route?
Actually it was aldude (Al Swanson) who wrote that, in the "other" Pinnacles thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=117726#msg117889
>It is my understanding that the bolt ladder has yet to be free climbed. Did you free the bolt ladder or is it still waiting for someone to free climb it?
I don't think Al freed the *second pitch* bolt ladder, but maybe he'll confirm. I heard from a guy a year or two ago who free the individual moves on toprope but then a key flake broke off when he tried to link it.
I recall reading in the "summit register" (wooden box 1 pitch below summit on Son of Dawn Wall) that Al did the first ascent of "The Waterchute" in 1/84, which sounded like the next chute right of the Son of Dawn Wall (finished by traversing back left to Son of Dawn Wall, which looks tough). I'd like to hear more about that if he remembers it! I can scan/post a topo of those 2 routes if it helps.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 15, 2005 - 09:14pm PT
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Well Brad, I've done exactly one FFA at Pinnacles and drilled zero bolts on lead there, so I'm no authority.
If I were doing a new route there that was likely to be popular, and wanted the best bolts, I'd use 12mm Triplex bolts on lead, then go and replace them right away with glue ins.
Advantage is that you can bring both short and long Triplex, and if you're sketching on the stance/hook or if the rock is hard, use the short ones. The bolts slide in the hole easily which is great for lead (as long as the rock isn't really hard and/or your drill bit is worn). Since it's pretty hard to do any damage to a drill bit there and you can hit the hand drill really really hard, I wouldn't worry about 12mm versus 3/8" for drilling on lead, but I do a lot of hand drilling and 12mm might be a bit much for some folks.
There's not much strength difference between stainless and non-stainless 5-pieces, and since Pinnacles rock is generally porous, water will evaporate through the rock and rusting will be limited (like in softer sandstone). And since stainless 3/8" 5-pieces are only available in 2.25" and 3.5", if you want 3" long you have to go non-stainless.
5-pieces haven't failed many places, so unless the bolt is unscrewed or moves in the hole (especially up & down from repeated falls/hangs), I would guess that the bolts are fine. I'd be far more suspicious of the 3/8" split-shaft bolts.
For rebolting with mechanical bolts, I'd recommend 1/2" x 3.75" 5-pieces (which are non-stainless, stainless are only 2.75" or 4.75"). But again, I'm used to hand drilling and they don't seem that big a deal to drill at Pinnacles.
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