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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 25, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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Klimmer,
When I travel it is for many reasons and discussing religion is not one of them. If, as sometimes happens, the subject of religion comes up, I express my views freely.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
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Klimmer nails it!
"Donini,
How the heck do you relate to anyone down in SA, with all the Catholicism surrounding you there?
Or how do you relate to anyone of faith in any country you climb in?
Let me guess, you never bring up politics or religion when out of the US, right? And if anyone does, quickly change the subject. Right?"
It's exactly why the archaic religulous groupthink needs to be broken up. And IS being broken up. Brick by brick. As Pate said earlier, it is choking. Both in this country and across continents and around the world.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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May 25, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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My friend Connor e-mailed the piece below to me today. I think it's a bit of wisdom from a man who some ST'ers would brand as foolish just because he espouses a personal belief that can be classed as religious. Really though, it seems to me he just points out the obvious inutility of thinking you are correct in your thinking, and everyone else who thinks differently is wrong. In this respect, the scientific way of doing life can be juxtaposed with the spiritual paths, and on the material plane, be shown to be superior. Ergo, all religious people are deluded fools. I am in no way religious, but I've seen and experienced too much to think that science has all the answers now, or can ever find all the answers.
Ohhh, well then...I guess I've just outed myself as the fool that I really am - one who has more questions than answers - and one who feels more enlightenned when he listens to the ramblings of fellow humans of all persuasions, than when he's trying to impress upon those he feels are intellectually inferior to him; their intellectual inferiority - and his own superiority - in tones that are designed to inhibit growth in the minds on either side of the divide.
-FoolishJello
By TENZIN GYATSO:
Published: May 24, 2010 New York Times
WHEN I was a boy in Tibet, I felt that my own Buddhist religion must be the best — and that other faiths were somehow inferior. Now I see how naïve I was, and how dangerous the extremes of religious intolerance can be today.
Though intolerance may be as old as religion itself, we still see vigorous signs of its virulence. In Europe, there are intense debates about newcomers wearing veils or wanting to erect minarets and episodes of violence against Muslim immigrants. Radical atheists issue blanket condemnations of those who hold to religious beliefs. In the Middle East, the flames of war are fanned by hatred of those who adhere to a different faith.
Such tensions are likely to increase as the world becomes more interconnected and cultures, peoples and religions become ever more entwined. The pressure this creates tests more than our tolerance — it demands that we promote peaceful coexistence and understanding across boundaries.
Granted, every religion has a sense of exclusivity as part of its core identity. Even so, I believe there is genuine potential for mutual understanding. While preserving faith toward one’s own tradition, one can respect, admire and appreciate other traditions.
An early eye-opener for me was my meeting with the Trappist monk Thomas Merton in India shortly before his untimely death in 1968. Merton told me he could be perfectly faithful to Christianity, yet learn in depth from other religions like Buddhism. The same is true for me as an ardent Buddhist learning from the world’s other great religions.
A main point in my discussion with Merton was how central compassion was to the message of both Christianity and Buddhism. In my readings of the New Testament, I find myself inspired by Jesus’ acts of compassion. His miracle of the loaves and fishes, his healing and his teaching are all motivated by the desire to relieve suffering.
I’m a firm believer in the power of personal contact to bridge differences, so I’ve long been drawn to dialogues with people of other religious outlooks. The focus on compassion that Merton and I observed in our two religions strikes me as a strong unifying thread among all the major faiths. And these days we need to highlight what unifies us.
Take Judaism, for instance. I first visited a synagogue in Cochin, India, in 1965, and have met with many rabbis over the years. I remember vividly the rabbi in the Netherlands who told me about the Holocaust with such intensity that we were both in tears. And I’ve learned how the Talmud and the Bible repeat the theme of compassion, as in the passage in Leviticus that admonishes, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
In my many encounters with Hindu scholars in India, I’ve come to see the centrality of selfless compassion in Hinduism too — as expressed, for instance, in the Bhagavad Gita, which praises those who “delight in the welfare of all beings.” I’m moved by the ways this value has been expressed in the life of great beings like Mahatma Gandhi, or the lesser-known Baba Amte, who founded a leper colony not far from a Tibetan settlement in Maharashtra State in India. There he fed and sheltered lepers who were otherwise shunned. When I received my Nobel Peace Prize, I made a donation to his colony.
Compassion is equally important in Islam — and recognizing that has become crucial in the years since Sept. 11, especially in answering those who paint Islam as a militant faith. On the first anniversary of 9/11, I spoke at the National Cathedral in Washington, pleading that we not blindly follow the lead of some in the news media and let the violent acts of a few individuals define an entire religion.
Let me tell you about the Islam I know. Tibet has had an Islamic community for around 400 years, although my richest contacts with Islam have been in India, which has the world’s second-largest Muslim population. An imam in Ladakh once told me that a true Muslim should love and respect all of Allah’s creatures. And in my understanding, Islam enshrines compassion as a core spiritual principle, reflected in the very name of God, the “Compassionate and Merciful,” that appears at the beginning of virtually each chapter of the Koran.
Finding common ground among faiths can help us bridge needless divides at a time when unified action is more crucial than ever. As a species, we must embrace the oneness of humanity as we face global issues like pandemics, economic crises and ecological disaster. At that scale, our response must be as one.
Harmony among the major faiths has become an essential ingredient of peaceful coexistence in our world. From this perspective, mutual understanding among these traditions is not merely the business of religious believers — it matters for the welfare of humanity as a whole.
Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, is the author, most recently, of “Toward a True Kinship of Faiths: How the World’s Religions Can Come Together.”
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 26, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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Hi Klimmer,
And what's the problem with respecting the locals ?
Or do the simple unwashed crave your salvation ?
JB,
Just my point. I relate by listening and understanding their points of view and ask questions about their faith or religion, if they have one.
I think it is very important to know the local customs and religion before going to a particular country (the cultural geography), just as much as knowing the physical geography of the country before going.
I'm not there to proselytize or disrespect them. I listen. If they ask what I believe I tell them in a kind non-judgemental manner. If they want to know more they can read (unless of course that country outlaws the Holy Bible). If they would want a copy of the Holy Bible, and I had one I could give them, then I would, as long as I'm not going to jail for doing so. Some places that will wind you up in prison ;-0
I am no threat. It is called human compassion, and respect. They might give me a copy of their religious text or Holy Book also. Good trade.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 26, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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Pate,
OK, I will believe you.
How about HFCS?
Seems very strange that EorE just showed up on this thread with only 2 posts so far, and here, and seems to be very much in line with your and HFCS line of thinking (and attitude).
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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The thing of beauty is that EOE and HFCS and Pate and Weschrist are not one and the same.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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May 26, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Pate,
"You are a condescending as#@&%e"
Might want to spend a few minutes in the mirror before you post that again,just sayin..........
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go-B
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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Fructose comes out of the closet!
It's about what you choose, and you have the right to be a snowball headed for hell! We can only point the way and say your headed toward a cliff without any brakes!
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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"Ohhh, well then, I guess I've just outed myself as the fool that I really am - one who has more questions than answers - and one who feels more enlightenned when he listens to the ramblings of fellow humans of all persuasions, than when he's trying to impress upon those he feels are intellectually inferior to him, their intellectual inferiority, and his own superiority, in tones that are designed to inhibit growth in the minds on either side of the divide."
-FoolishJello
It's good to see you back here my friend, with your foolishness (I call it humble and compassionate).
I guess I'm always stumped when folks call foul on the bible, as the message is clearly; the LOVE of God for His creation ! Pretty simple stuff. And all he adds is: go and do likewise ! Also simple stuff.
jellosfoolish friend flanders!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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Wes- "Fuking religeousurd"
That's the best you can do in response to the FACT that prophesy came to pass when Mao stated that they had the ability to form an army of 200 million soldiers! When there were not even 100 million people on earth.
The UNITED NATIONS gave the Jews BACK what was rightfully theirs...The Promised Land!
Wes- "What common thread..."
Obviously the Old Testament(and NT).
BTW, Israel and the Jewish people are still Gods chosen people!
"I will bless those who choose to bless, and curse those who choose to curse..."
Hitler and the Natzi's should have taken that verse to heart!
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 26, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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I am Pate. I always have been and I always will be, and I am not another.
Obviously I'm not Pate and no, I am not HFCS either. I have a regular avatar I have been using for years but have not posted in a long time. Previously it has always been about climbing or dialogues with IRL friends I have on here.
I have been watching some of the OT threads lately with interest, specifically the moon ark thread and have wanted to jump in but abstained because I didn't want to get sucked into that hogwash with any real commitment. That is why I am using a new avatar because now I can walk away form this without worry about other people getting the last word and my honor not being defended.
If anyone is really offended by anything I have or do say, message me and I will open a real dialogue with you outside of this. If you do open a dialogue to proselytize then it will be terminated immediately. I have participated heavily in three different major religions and they contributed nothing to my moral fiber that couldn't be gleaned from common sense combined with the golden rule.
Klimmer, I am sorry for picking on you. Your religiosity is only mild to moderate compared to a few others here who I think are more deserving of vitriol saying things like...
God help ya....
and oops, I think TripL7 editing something posted earlier about hell or gods wrath/judgment.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 12:46am PT
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EOE- "and oops T7 editing something..."
What did i edit??
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 26, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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Jello: Thank you for “posting up” on this thread and sharing the NY Times article.
I have also been distressed with the “bickering” on what some of us consider a “climbing forum.”
Despite assertions: that these arguments go on around the campfire------I think the anonymity of the forum brings out the worst in us.
Maybe those that love to bicker will want to migrate to the bickering paradise:
http://www.virtualcampfire.org/viewforum.php?f=2
I am impressed that the last eight people that posted on this thread ignored your thoughts. Do any of you people have a climbing background--------or are you just “rabid posting dogs?”
TENZIN GYATSO:
Published: May 24, 2010 New York Times
My friend Connor e-mailed the piece below to me today. I think it's a bit of wisdom from a man who some ST'ers would brand as foolish just because he espouses a personal belief that can be classed as religious. Really though, it seems to me he just points out the obvious inutility of thinking you are correct in your thinking, and everyone else who thinks differently is wrong. In this respect, the scientific way of doing life can be juxtaposed with the spiritual paths, and on the material plane, be shown to be superior. Ergo, all religious people are deluded fools. I am in no way religious, but I've seen and experienced too much to think that science has all the answers now, or can ever find all the answers.
From Jeff Lowe:
Ohhh, well then, I guess I've just outed myself as the fool that I really am - one who has more questions than answers - and one who feels more enlightened when he listens to the ramblings of fellow humans of all persuasions, than when he's trying to impress upon those he feels are intellectually inferior to him, their intellectual inferiority, and his own superiority, in tones that are designed to inhibit growth in the minds on either side of the divide.
-FoolishJello
In closing:
I believe: you are all wiser and better------- than what you are posting---------- on this thread.
Everyone is capable of change------or you can prove me wrong?
Fritz
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 26, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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WesChrist! You now qualify as a "Rabid Posting Dog!" It appears you either do not read or are not capable of understanding previous posts.
Please move your comments to the "Rabid dog forum":
http://www.virtualcampfire.org/viewforum.php?f=2
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 26, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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Fritz I think you are suffering from a little "Rabid Posting Dog!" syndrome yourself, two out of three posts are yours slinging this insult.
Just because I didn't directly quote or reference Jello or the Dali Lama like you did doesn't mean I wasn't on topic and was just bickering. There are multiple threads in this thread and some of us will post following something without laying homage to it because they are involved in another thread.
That aside, I think my anecdote of heavy participation in three different religions and finding the golden rule common and singularly as helpful as anything else of the three dovetails nicely with that statement from Jello.
Lighten up a little and read between the lines, everything is not all black and white... or in this case heaven and hell.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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May 26, 2010 - 01:25am PT
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Flanders sums it up well......thanks Doug.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 01:28am PT
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Wes- "are you insane?"
It is now obvious that you like Bill Maher don't bother read what you are posting about etc.
The Prophet Joel in the second chapter of his book prophesied in regards to an army of 200 million, as did the Apostle/Prophet John in chapter 9 of Revelation.
Joel, as I am sure you are aware, was a Prophet in the 4th Century B.C.
The total world population was about 100 million in 400 B.C.
EDIT: Mao, with his statement in regards to an army of 200 million, was the fulfillment of that prophecy!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 01:53am PT
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They could and will at the drop of a hat(form an army of 200 million).
But you are missing the point in regards to "Religulous absurdity"...
HFCS- "Religulous...or claims that are patently ABSURD..."
Those two Bible verses(army of 200 million)were held as just that "Absurd" until the middle of the last century.
Along with the "absurd notion" that Israel/Jews would ever complete Biblical prophecy, and once again, live in the promised land.
And of course all the naysayers were silenced...
The next prophecy will be Israel being attacked by Persia(Iran)in a confederacy with Russia(and Libya, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and three other Persian Gulf country's.
Who woulda thunk such a thing over two thousand years ago when Russia was just a bunch of hicks at best?
EDIT: Read the news headlines regarding Russia and Iran.
No one will come to Israels aid(not even USA). But they will win.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 02:00am PT
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Wes- "I am use to complete sentences..."
777- "Regarding the Prophets, they also prophesied that China would amass an army of 200 million long before there were even 100 million people in the world."
Looks complete to me.
You LOOSE Wes!
And your to proud to admit it... or to apologize!
EDIT: "You can lead them to water but you can't make them drink!"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 02:27am PT
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Fritz- "WesChrist, It appears you either do not read, or are not capable of understanding previous posts."
Well said Fritz!
Thanks!
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