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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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May 24, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
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7. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
Quick and easy. All things apparently require creation, what created your god?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 24, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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When I look at the teaching of Jesus, I see a lot of emphasis on tolerance, non-judgement and loving your enemies,... and none on believing in the biblical creation story, noah's ark and so forth.
and yet some folks who follow Jesus insist on debating with fervor the merits of making scientific history out of scripture while ignoring the teachings that Jesus actually made a big deal of.
Take a deep breath and look again, within especially
PEace
Karl
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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May 24, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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Evolution, nor any kind of life defies the laws of thermodynamics
One of my faves.
If only there were some giant flaming ball hydrogen in the sky constantly pumping energy into our system.
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WBraun
climber
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May 24, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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The spirit soul is beyond the laws of thermodynamics.
Thus it can go anywhere in a instant.
Modern science has no clue about this thus modern science is still in the cave man mode.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 24, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
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Karl- "When I look at the teaching of Jesus...and none on believing...noah's ark and so forth."
"But as it was in the day's of Noah, so shall it be in the day's of the Son of man..." Luke 17:27
For before the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the times of Noah. For as in those day's before the flood they were eating and drinking..." Matthew 24:36-37
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 24, 2010 - 10:50pm PT
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Pate!
I was just refuting Karl's conjecture in regards to Jesus not mentioning Noah etc.,
How else am i going to do that unless I quote Jesus talking about Noah?!!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 25, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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7. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
Quick and easy. All things apparently require creation, what created your god?
One perspective is that the first statement is itself false - that there is no "first" moment and nothing was ever created. Just everything changes, morphs, shape shifts, infinitely.
A very interesting study is to look at the language and reasoning used when people are trying to discuss the original moments of the big bang, and "beforehand." It's almost hilarious, especially those insisting that we cannot intelligently discuss states or durations before time "began."
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2010 - 04:23am PT
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I was just refuting Karl's conjecture in regards to Jesus not mentioning Noah etc.,
There's nothing in those quotes that refute the spirit of what I was saying. Jesus isn't defending the Noah story to doubters or saying that buying it is an article of faith. He does defend Love, Non-judgement, charity, and loving enemies. What's more important?
It's silly to have a vulgar and unfriendly flame war in the name o Jesus while upholding interpretations of the Bible that simply don't matter to the heart of things
Peace
Karl
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 09:10am PT
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seems like the gang has moved over here, no longer posting in the other threads. thought you'd get away from me--mwoahahahaha.
prime mover is the cosmological argument for the existence of god. trouble is, if you don't know the physics nowadays, you're kinda out of the discussion. it's not that newton was left in the dust, it's just that the discussion has broadened considerably. i don't know the physics, so i can't wade in. JL must have great insights from koaning.
the big bang is a singularity, like a black hole. spacetime supposedly can't be addressed in a singularity. thinking of this as eternity and god territory is probably as comforting an attitude as any.
baba--see below on love. and largo, a brief note on process.
stahlbro:
gould did not write "it's a wonderful life". that's the frank capra movie starring mickey mouse.
gould wrote "wonderful life" about the cambrian "explosion" of biological diversity embodied in the fantastic fossils of the burgess shale in eastern british columbia. these 500-million-year-old specimens are preserved in such remarkable detail that modern biology can make extensive inference about the animals and their lives.
tradster & stahlbro:
i've been a gould fan for quite awhile, and i thought for years that he was pretty much the last word on contemporary interpretation of evolution, but then i discovered simon conway-morris, who engaged in an interesting debate with gould during his lifetime and continues his stance today. both have extraordinary command of the boggling spectrum of sciences involved-- paleontology, geology, astrophysics, physiology, molecular chemistry.
morris's big thing is convergence. no matter its byroads, evolution keeps going in the same direction, towards intelligence and a higher consciousness, and therefore, he gently suggests, we don't have to be throwing out all our religious ideas or beliefs.
there's a catholic fellow who broke this ground even before morris, and the fact the morris ignores him and even delivers a freudian slip on the matter shows how emotional this issue is even among the astute. pierre teilhard de chardin was a jesuit priest and paleontologist involved in the peking man discoveries. also a suspect in the piltdown hoax, btw, but anybody who was anybody in paleontology in those days was a suspect in the piltdown hoax.
one of my climbing buddies happens to have a phd in physics from a swiss university and he doesn't have much use for religion. "it's a crutch for people who can't walk on their own." but when the subject of teilhard comes up, he marvels: "everything he has predicted has come true--his predictions keep coming true." these are predictions about the course of the human race which we've all witnessed in our lifetimes, where the processes of evolution are accelerating like a monster drag racer. put your gobbledygook bible crostic puzzles into an appropriate body cavity and wake up and smell the refried science. teilhard is much bigger in europe than the u.s.a., but when you look at that bar graph someone put on the evolution thread, you'll still find people going to church in those countries.
klimmer:
you may be teaching this stuff, but i question your passion for it. please don't become another overpaid dud of a teacher out there to stifle the enthusiasms of youth. i just suffered two wonderful kids through school systems, mostly public, and their careers, imaginations and futures were drastically narrowed by too many teachers like that. a dad can only do so much.
klim, i think your real motive is the predictable pursuit of pleasing bigdaddy god for a pat on the back. i predict that you won't be getting it if you keep it up like this. you're teaching this in public schools for an easy buck, playing the game their way, keeping mum about what you really believe to be the truth. if you really believe in your mix of simplified evolution and old-time religion, get thee to one of myriad private religious schools which will welcome you for 60 percent of the pay and 10 percent of the benefits. 'tis a gift to come down where we ought to be.
btw, skipt: teilhard's books were forbidden to be published by the catholic church during his lifetime, but you can thank him for current acceptance of evolutionary science among mackerelsnappers. catholicism can be so charming that way. galileo got the same treatment. step on threatening ideas and grind them into the gravel with all your corpulence, but if it turns out to be a cockroach you can't kill, let it stagger away and call it a miracle. god works in mysterious ways, revealing truths which contradict what he told us before. quite a process, eh largo?
gould is for you atheists, and he could really play the grinch. consider that love, that four-letter word whose meaning we all understand so precisely, is nothing more than species-driven self-interest. motherly, brotherly, romantic, divine. your partner, your child, your family, your friends, your country, your fellow believers--these are the ones you love. your god loves them all too, and damns your enemies, personal, national and intellectual. love never goes beyond these things.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
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When I look at the teaching of Jesus, I see a lot of emphasis on tolerance, non-judgement and loving your enemies,... and none on believing in the biblical creation story, noah's ark and so forth.
and yet some folks who follow Jesus insist on debating with fervor the merits of making scientific history out of scripture while ignoring the teachings that Jesus actually made a big deal of.
Take a deep breath and look again, within especially
PEace
Karl
You are right Karl.
The point of the bible is not to describe the history of the Universe.
It is pointless for me to get involved in these explosive debates.
I stand corrected.
I entered this web site when RokJox was having an all out war over the posting of a large picture of a nuke bomb, LEB and Fish were raging, locker had recently been reinstated after a forced hiatus having something to do with not so subtle nudity.......................etc.
This place has never been decent as far as I know. And digging back to 3 or 5 years- I'd say t he Wild West days of the Taco are a bygone era.
It is indeed a shame then.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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With an answer like "both", I would then assume that:
1) you got called contradicting yourself and had no real answer
or
2) you are a hypocrite
I'm not posting to start waves or create animosity, just trying to clarify where your thought process is coming from.
Dave,
I definitely got defensive on the one post when I chose the term ignorant.
I see what you are saying and I appreciate you trying not to pick a fight. I also appreciate your overall point of view.....thanks for the post.
Obviously no one tries to contradict themselves. When emotions take over people say and do stupid things, I opened myself to a sh#t storm and did nothing to set myself apart from it.
Like I said earlier in the post, I have learned my lesson with regards to these topics. I will try and focus on the more positive aspects of this site.......like climbing!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 25, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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BB wrote-
"It is pointless for me to get involved in these explosive debates."
Especially insofar as you misunderstand science and then use this misunderstanding in the promotion of traditional Christian religion. -Which then just fires up the defenders of science, science education.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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May 25, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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thanks bb!
no worries here, glad to see that a civil communication taking place instead of hate and speculation.
climb on bb!!
take care
dave
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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Especially insofar as you misunderstand science and then use this misunderstanding in the promotion of traditional Christian religion. -Which then just fires up the defenders of science, science education.
For the second time......I have never expressed my particular religious/creationist viewpoint, nor am I promoting anything.
I am simply against the mob mentality that goes on around here, yet after it is all said and done I realize I am powerless against it. Maybe I did not convey my viewpoint very well through this medium, emotion and haste make people far less eloquent.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 25, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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BB wrote-
"...that all this energy and matter somehow randomly came into existence and defied the laws of thermodynamics to produce conscious beings then so be it. You are truly the ignorant ones."
"...nor am I promoting anything."
As others have pointed out, (a) living processes, including evolution, do not defy the laws of thermodynamics, (b) this is more religious chicanery (we gotta save our asses strategy) promoted aggressively and without shame by religious institutions, religious leadership.
But then again my previous post was written before your second to last one.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 25, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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Dave,
Good thoughts!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 25, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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If you base your views on evidence and reason instead of what you want to believe:
Evolution is real. We evolved from lower life forms. Either that or God planted fake fossils and made it look like we evolved, but why would he do that.
We don't know what created the universe and set things up for evolution to occcur. We just don't know, was it God, was it an accident, was it inevitable? We don't know, you can claim all you want there is God or there is no God behind it all, but we don't know. So I for one allow people to believe what they want as long as they don't force it on me or my posterity.
But to claim people have always existed in their present form is wishful thinking and allegiance to a falsehood. It is refuted by all reasonable evidence. Arguing with someone about how misguided that view is won't get anywhere becasue they choose to belive in something false because it fits what they want to believe. It's ok if they want to think that way, but once they try to force that view on others (e.g. in public schools) they should not be suprised when it's met with derision and anger.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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We don't know what created the universe and set things up for evolution to occcur. We just don't know, was it God, was it an accident, was it inevitable? We don't know, you can claim all you want there is God or there is no God behind it all, but we don't know. So I for one allow people to believe what they want as long as they don't force it on me or my posterity.
Agreed.
But to claim people have always existed in their present form is wishful thinking and allegiance to a falsehood. It is refuted by all reasonable evidence.
Agreed once again. I don't remember anyone ever saying that we have existed always in our present form though.
I am a theistic evolutionist.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 25, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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The Fet wrote-
"So I for one allow people to believe what they want as long as they don't force it on me or my posterity."
That's it right there.
Or force it on the laws of this country.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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The Fet wrote-
"So I for one allow people to believe what they want as long as they don't force it on me or my posterity."
That's it right there.
Or force it on the laws of this country.
Hey look at this.......we all are agreeing on something finally.
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