Climbing Ethics -- Etiquette on Passing Parties

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tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

May 12, 2010 - 09:51pm PT

If you have a 4hr head start on me and I catch you on P3 that is not reasonable. It ain't rocket science.. If the party below gains on you rapidly and makes up several pitches for your one pitch then you should yeild.

Of course everyone should be polite. Being polite counts for both partys. If you are so obviously slower than the party that is obviously overtaking you rapidly then just let your ego have a rest and offer to let them pass.

I have let folks pass a few times. Usualy soloists. I have also had complete tools refuse to even let us clip the bolts at the belay so we could take a break or bail because they were so slow. We eventualy ended up bailing but there was absolutly no reason they would not let Isa at least clip into the anchor and take a break. We were forced to wait at least 2 hrs for the leader to finish the pitch, build anchor and the 2nd to start climbing before we could even get to the belay to rap.. December in N conway on the prow so we froze our butts off. They had a 4hr head start on us and we caught them on the 3rd pitch of the prow. Its tight there and a bad place to pass so we were not even considering passing them. We were very polite but the a holes wouldn't even let Isa clip into the belay.... AAAAARRRRGGGGGGGGG

I have shared dozens of belays over the yars for whatever reason. folks coming up or going down. Always polite and helpfull... This tool was afraid that 3 bolt anchor in solid clean granit would not hold 2 or 3 people? wanted that whole anchor to himself......

Japhy

Mountain climber

Kathmandu, Nepal

Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 10:00pm PT

Okie --

Strange? You think this is a strange post?

Yes, thats because I'm trying to make sense of the things that happened that day and I feel like it is important that PEOPLE RESPECT EACH OTHER.

As much as I am annoyed by your attitude, I will say that I wish you well and hope that you never have to go through what I am going through right now.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

Sprocketville

May 12, 2010 - 10:16pm PT

Japphy, get some grief counseling if you can.

this was a tough one, you might overload your circuit breakers if you try to handle it all by yourself.

i hope your living situation is non stressful, doing a stressful job after something like this is a real pain,

remember, everybody goes sooner or later, and there is always someone else involved who could have helped, or prevented,

i lost my best friend a while back, i could have kept him off the bottle, but i gave up. oh well. how will we all go? nobody knows.

auto accidents, murder, war, there is a world full of blues,

and they don't knock , they walk right in.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA

May 12, 2010 - 10:29pm PT

One real problem with passing parties is if the party attempting to pass you is linking pitches. Last year on the East Buttress of El Cap Clint and I had headlamps so we let a party pass us. But because they were linking pitches it took them *twice* as long to pass us than if they were not linking pitches.

One guideline I would like to propose is that if you are passing a party, don't link the next two pitches so the party you are passing isn't held up for any more time than is necessary.

Bruce

golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

May 12, 2010 - 10:42pm PT

It is not rocket science as others have already said. There are probably very few climbers that wont get passed someday. Someday you get passed and someday you pass. Not too hard to figure out that politeness and communication are in order...

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

Sprocketville

May 12, 2010 - 10:44pm PT

what would Jim Bridwell do if somebody tried to pass him?

nothing.

Bridwell never gets passed.

Bob Fellner

Trad climber

Carrboro, N. Carolina

May 12, 2010 - 10:54pm PT

I'm a gumby so take it for what you will...

No one ever has a right to pass. If I am at the climb first you can go find another place to climb, the world is full of crags.

That said, I have gladly let climbers pass before and had no problem with it as it was my choice, I offered it to them as I saw them coming up on us. But again, it should never be expected.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

May 12, 2010 - 11:50pm PT

Bob, If you are 3 or 4 pitches up a 10 pitch climb, a party starting the climb should reasonably be assured that they will be able to casually climb without running up your butt. If you are so slow that they inadvertantly catch up to you then it would be very poor form to not offer them the right to pass unless you all were so close to the top as to make no real difference. If lets say you are on P 4 when the party below you starts the climb and you are only on P5 when they catch you then Not letting them pass would be the a hole move of the decade..

I have caught partys on the 3rd pitch of Moby Grape that started the climb 4+ hrs ahead of me. When you start the climb you cant see much from the base of the Buttress. We knew they had signed the register at 6:00am. We left the parking lot at 10:00am, get to the base of the climb, realize that they are still on P 2 or 3 so we chill for an hour and then start casually climbing. Still catch them at the top of P3

It can happen to anyone. I have been setting at the top of P4 and let a guy climb through who was faster than us.

gumbyclimber

climber

May 12, 2010 - 11:56pm PT

There will always be a party faster than you, and there will always be parties slower than you. Therefore, passing is going to happen whether everybody likes it or not. That being said, it's all about the approach of the passing party and the kindness, understanding, and honest assessment of the abilities of all people involved as well as a little give and take ("Maybe you guys wouldn't mind if we snuck past you at the next stance..."). It happens just as often that a party doesn't want to be passed because of an ego problem as it does people choosing to climb jam-packed routes fast because of an ego problem.

Example. Let's say Party B comes screaming up behind Party A and Party A refuses, after being asked nicely, to let them pass. Now Party A is going to have a potentially much faster team nipping at their heels the whole way up the route which could actually contribute more to an accident by making them feel like they have to move faster than they would otherwise be moving.

It is simply not reasonable to say, "We were here first, so F-off." because then every time a team gets in over their head and epics on a route that route is shut down for the rest of the day to everybody else (and maybe the next day too). What if a couple of solid 5.7 leaders are aiding their way up the East Buttress of El Cap? Is everybody else supposed to stack up behind them or just call it a day and rap or walk down before even starting? Does this mean that good climbers can never climb trade routes anymore because they are full of sketchy gumbies who might trundle something on them?

Personally, if I expect to be passing a party I try to let them offer first because it's plainly obvious my team is moving much quicker. The keys here are back in my first paragraph: kindness, understanding, and an honest assessment by everybody of the situation. If you come burning up on somebody's heels and just start chatting with them, asking them where they're from, how their day is going, what other routes they've done lately, what they do when they're not climbing, etc they usually follow up with, "Hey, did you guys want to pass us?". If you come burning up on somebody's heels, clip their anchor, grunt, piss on their shoes, and move on then you deserve all of the hostility you're going to get.

Japhy, the people who passed you were obviously acting like complete jerks. I totally understand your anger [and am feeling it too] and also don't think the anonymity is necessary. If the people are "well known members of the local community" then it means they are acting as representatives of said community [not to mention their sponsors, should they have any] and are supposed to be setting the standard and example of how things should be done and how to treat less experienced climbers. Not putting in any gear when you're passing somebody like that is entirely irresponsible because of exactly what happened; you're soloing under a person of unknown climbing ability and they might fall and take you out and you might in turn take someone else out. At the very least she should have asked if she could clip your gear [benefit of doubt, let's say she was out of gear from simuling]. Aside from that, it's rarely necessary to pass somebody in the last 50 feet of a climb, especially since you guys were obviously not in a hurry to rap first. If somebody is going to act like that then they should be called out on it; otherwise, what motivation is there for people it to not act like that in the future? To let them hide behind Brian's accident isn't fair to you as the one carrying all the emotion around; besides, it sounds like they were probably long gone by the time the accident happened. You should either take it up with them privately and air your grievance, or they should post up here and try to justify their behavior or apologize. I think you deserve, at the very least, that level of compassion, decency, and respect. One way or another, you're going to have to unload the emotions eventually.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

May 12, 2010 - 11:56pm PT

Unfortunately Mr. Fellner though the world is full of crags sometimes parties get on ultra classics they shouldn't be on. If you are impeding a much faster party you should allow them to pass.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

Sprocketville

May 13, 2010 - 12:33am PT

yosemite is probably the most beautiful place on earth than can be the most grossed out place on earth at the same time.

it would be nice to see some people once in a while where i climb,

it is downright lonely. no cell service either. nobody for 3 weeks.

slobmonster

Trad climber

OAK (nee NH)

May 13, 2010 - 12:56am PT

I am extremely angry, but will refrain from naming any names. The couple who passed us are well known members of the local community.

Soon, and with some processing, you may reconsider. I hope you do.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Full Silos of Iowa

May 13, 2010 - 12:57am PT

Japhy- Just caught your account. As laid out, that's totally lame on their part.

What Coz said was exactly right-

"You can not climb through people without asking, that's just bull-sh#t, that woman is a four letter word, for doing that to you guys"

Esp insofar as you described it... that's damn straight.

Take care, Japhy. Peace to you.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

Sprocketville

May 13, 2010 - 01:07am PT

if somebody passes me illegally, i usually try and get their license number.

3 violations and they lose their climbers license for the greater yosemite area.

Bob Fellner

Trad climber

Carrboro, N. Carolina

May 13, 2010 - 01:22am PT

Unfortunately Mr. Fellner though the world is full of crags sometimes parties get on ultra classics they shouldn't be on.

Ultra classic I shouldnt be on? If I do it in the style it was put up, leave no trace and am able to climb it, I have just as much right to climb as you... or <insert your climbing hero's name>.

tradmanclimbs, I understand your point and adhere to it perfectly but there is a big difference between the etiquette of ALLOWING someone to pass and them having a RIGHT to do so.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

Sprocketville

May 13, 2010 - 01:32am PT

why do humans like to congregate among their own species?

that's what i want to know.

call me anti social, but sometimes i like to get away, especially when living in the pit.

you go out of your way to get out there, and if one other person is in the area, they will walk over and want to jive.

whats up with that?

now when you get passed by as#@&%es, they went out of their way to be in a social situation so they could be anti social.

see, being an as#@&%e by yourself is no fun

so certain people have to get their kicks by f*#king with people.

i think i see it now. the cognition is complete.

no wait, this is the FN cognition,

they wanted to hurry up the climb so they could get home and suck each other off. thats it. next time you get passed by a couple of homos, you will realize what is going on, it's the tube steaks down below that are doing the talkin.

Bullwinkle

Boulder climber

May 13, 2010 - 02:04am PT

Japhy,

I'm very sorry for the loss of your friend. I truly do understand the pain that you're going thur in this moment.

I do feel that at this point in time you'd be best served in not posting this thread, it has no purpose. It will just add to your anger about losing your partner.

There are no hard and fast rules to Climbing, no "Board of Ethics" I urge you to not focus on getting passed in this manner.

This will not heal you, it only serves to inflame you and people that were not there and have no reason to be involved with this tragedy. . .

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Boulder Creek CA

May 13, 2010 - 03:44am PT

I did stay away from most other climbers for the past forty years. It is very hard for me to come back into the community to hear that this sort of disrespectful behavior has not improved, but gotten even worse. Climbers with ego challenges should be the ones to go into the high mountains by themselves and find their own balance in life.

In the early sixties we climbed as if we led charmed lives; and were proud that none of us had been badly hurt, unlike the carnage in the Alps. Then we lost Jim Baldwin on the East Face of the Column; and that was a big wake-up call for at least some of us.

My wish would be to see Yosemite become known as a place of mutual respect and skilled apprenticeship, rather than an arena for head-butting bullies.

Anyone who climbs the big stones is worthy of respect and should not be subjected to bullying. If you want to push people around, take up football or stick to driving the freeways. No matter how good a climber you are, you will always eventually find someone who is amazingly better than you.

The respect that you show other people is also reflected in how you manage yourself on the rock. A bully may get a great adrenalin ego boost; and yet miss out on the dynamic aesthetics that are the best rewards for climbing in the mountains.