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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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Okie, the closure language, even with the embarrassing mistake, still reads; includes all routes between and including "South Seas/Pacific Ocean Wall" (since South Seas finishes on the PO) East to "Native Son". The North America Wall is within that area. The North American Wall is a relatively unknown variation, that has not seen a second ascent since the first ascent was completed sometime last week in my imagination--in a moment of spaciness while writing the language of the closure notice.
Weird, I would never say North American Wall outloud, but for some reason I in writing it just came out that way...I need a proof reader. When do you start Jake?
Jesse
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Apr 11, 2010 - 02:47pm PT
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thanks jesse.
i just wanted to share with you all a little of what i know about the peregrine closures. much of the work on peregrine research and closures since the late 80's was done by jeff maurer. he was a climber as well as being passionate birder, conservationist, and well thought human.
these closures are not the actions of tools who don't want you to climb or slackline or be free in the valley. it is to protect these amazing animals for four months of the year. the choices are made by climbers and other lovers of freedom.
jeff maurer died in my hands in the end of august after falling on the third pillar of dana. when i heard about the peregrines on el cap my heart soared, as it did for many of jeff's family and friends. for me this is such a great event, and i am eager to sit in the meadow watching the birds soar. i wish the best for these birds, and think it must be some lucky chicks to be born on the great stone.
i always thought that respecting the creatures of the great stone was good for my karma on the rock. i like that i have to wait to be able to climb the rostrum at a certain time of year. i am into delayed gratification. we don't have to have everything we want all the time, sometimes we get what we need and it is pretty f*#king good.
i would love to see a blanket respect for all animals on this planet. an end to factory farms, polluting of oceans, rivers, streams, lakes, and all habitats that animals live in. since this is not happening all at once, i do not see any harm in trying to save what we can, i do not find it hypocritical to do what we can.
peace,
jo-lynne
great story coz, thanks for your words.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Apr 11, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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They nest on the top of downtown buildings all over the place. There are plenty of webcams, in CA showing nesting pairs on highrises. Here are a few http://www2.ucsc.edu/scpbrg/nestcameras.htm
I wonder how much separation they need?
There are a pair nesting on the roof of the Rosa Parks State building in downtown San Bernardino when I worked there. Pigeon heads hitting the sidewalk all the time, maintenance guys on the roof near the nest all the time, webcam aimed in there, etc.
They are no longer listed, and our "recovery" efforts are essentially passive. Yet we dump how much money into "protecting" them and "recovery"? It's silly. Bottom line: You will NEVER see a govt agency willingly re-allocate or give up funds. EVER. Now that they've recovered, instead of celebrating and refocusing on the latest pressing problem, there are vested interests. People with grants, careers, divisions and underlings, etc invested in the issue who will continue to go to that well until it's dry.
Same as it ever was.
Maybe if enough people start asking hard questions about why there's no hot water, no functioning mirrors, and 3 shitters for 150 men in the only walk-in campground, yet we put tens of thousands per year into falcon "recovery" efforts when those actions basically amount to looking through a scope, and have no discernable effect on actual recovery of the species. The falcon problem was DDT, not people in proximity to their nests.
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
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elcapinyoazz, get over your sh#t. are you such a pansy that you can't heat a little water on your, stove, walk to your car, bike over to the lodge to sh#t. you would rather see the park service focus on your personal comfort, creating more infrastructure, then protect the natural resources it was formed for. maybe you should stay in the city if you don't want to rough it in yosemite.
did you not here coz's story about the falcon's abandoning their nest when he and walt climbed through on the ypb?
i also recall that a few years ago when the closure on the rostrum was voluntary the birds did not nest, but then when it was mandatory they did. the first year with 2 successful hatchlings, and the next year with 3. (i think lincoln told me that, i don't remeber my source.)
oh and just rereading you are concerned about functioning mirrors... that shit's hillarious...
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
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ECin.. Touche! Nicely said.
My personal experience with Peregrin Closure that had really sent me off is based on the annual and seasonal closure in Prescott N.F. at Granite Mountain in AZ. To make a long story short:
Granite Mountain is a 500' Cliff that is about half a mile wide, with over 80 4-6 pitch routes ..., trending SSE to NNW, it is truly some of the best (solid granite) trad climbing in the state.
The birds had/have a nest up high at the westerly third of the cliff.
The NFS decides ... let's just close the whole cliff down ... and they still do to this day every spring.
This basically blew away over 50% of the climbable season. Because Spring and Fall is peak season, and summer is too hot.
So no climb from Feb to July/Aug, every year.
This is the prime example of why I have posted above that Management Policy without the science to back it up is just Bad Policy.
Mi no gusta!
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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r.b. my understanding of the granite mountain closure is that they do not have enough money to do the research needed to limit the closure to just the routes the peregrines are nesting on. it is cheaper to just close the whole wall. it is frustrating when that is the best climbing in the area and that closure is excessive. i wonder if a grant could be found to do the necessary research and open a portion of the area.
it does seem the valley is a different case all together.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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No ma'am, Tinker I don't stay there. It's not about my comfort. It's about the responsible use of public funds. I've spent a career in water resources protection, usually working for public agencies at the county, state, and federal levels. I see the dysfunction of bureacracies from the inside, day-in and day-out.
But keep beating your chest and feeling righteous, if that makes you feel good.
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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Tinker,
Yes, the valley is a separate chapter of the same bad novel.
Don't get me wrong, I think every species needs a home, but it's best to make that need in balance with mankinds need to shralp the rads.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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There are Falcon closures at crags, cliffs, and walls all throughout the country.
Deal with it.
We are aliens on that terrain, they are natives.
Leave them be and stop bitching, and ECIYAZZ, get over yourself, dude.
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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It's all honky dory until you go to climb at your favorite cliff and find out that they just posted a closure notice without any public hearing or process ... then ... maybe not so good.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz, by the way that has got to hurt for El Cap to be in ..., maybe that is why you are so angry.
Please reread my above post in response to the question about funding for this position. Your tax dollars are not going to the peregrine monitoring positions,
Yet we dump how much money into "protecting" them and "recovery"? It's silly. Bottom line:...
Private interests are paying for this, and private or university dollars have always paid for the efforts.
If you are willing to have an actual reasoned discussion and take your time to write non-inflammatory comments to NPS leaders or politicians outside of this forum, get organized with like minded recreational utilitarians, and site academic resources that support your arguments you may get somewhere (you may want to choose a different alias). In the meantime be satisfied with beating your chest and throwing complaints to the Supertopo forum about not having enough mirrors for 150 grown men...btw I don't hear the women complaining.
Thanks, jo-lynne for the perspective about Jeff. It seems like people ignore the fact the protections have not been spear-headed by the big-bad Government, but a few compassionate bird/wildlife professionals who have put 1000s of hours of unpaid time to help protect peregrines. But, that doesn't go well with their world view as they sit back and get ticked off watching Glen Beck rants.
Jesse
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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Interesting reactions. I wonder how, in your reactionary/defensive minds, that taking a rational look at something makes it about me.
I don't stay in Camp4. I have no plans to climb anything in the closure area. Where do I figure into this again? Because I'm willing to ask questions? Or does being angry at someone asking questions make you feel like you're DOING something for the falcons?
I'd wager I've spent more time protecting the naturals resources of this country than the vast, vast majority of you. I've gone to bat for the resource when it actually mattered, putting my career in the balance...and lost. I left a career in federal water resources protection, largely because there was no political will to protect the resource if it meant any conflict with or inconveniencing of business interests.
From 1993 to 1998 I worked on an enforcement case for an ongoing, serial violator of a point source water discharge permit. The maximum fines were in the $40 million range. The number was that low only because of a 5yr statute of limiations on violations, they'd been continuously violating paramaters of their NPDES permit for a decade or more and I kept a running 5 yr spreadsheet to keep the max penalty current. Mostly petro-chem and heavy metal pollutants. The case was settled for less than $250k and an agreement to install about $100k of pollution equipment. Five years of my life/career, they get off basically free with no future incentive to be proactive or even address their violations.
So forgive me if I'm not willing to sit around and listen to a bunch of bullshit from well-meaning enviro types who want somewhere to direct their anger.
Notice the wording around the Granite Mtn closures..basically, give us more money so we can monitor or we have to close the entire place. As I said, it's never about shifting allocation or prudent application of limited resources in govt.
Jesse, nice smarmy comment about the mirrors. I guess with you haven't started shaving yet?
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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Maybe if enough people start asking hard questions about why there's no hot water, no functioning mirrors, and 3 shitters for 150 men in the only walk-in campground, yet we put tens of thousands per year into falcon "recovery" efforts when those actions basically amount to looking through a scope, and have no discernable effect on actual recovery of the species. The falcon problem was DDT, not people in proximity to their nests.
maybe if that hadn't been your hard question...
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jack herer
climber
veneta, or
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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R.B. got me thinking... How about closing off 4000 acres in the Menagerie Wilderness in Oregon making the close to 200 climbs back there only accessable for four months of the year. Due two a pair of falcons that nest on one of the spires on the edge of the wilderness, now were talking about 100 differnt rock formations on 4 differnt aspects of two differnt drainages. And maybe only 20 differnt people climb up there a year anyways. Now I find this to be bull sh#t.
Ya and honsetly is this really affecting anyones El Cap plans between now and July?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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Let me take another approach then.
What do you folks thing is the biggest danger to peregrines today?
Perhaps look into the pigeon keepers/racers who actively destroy falcon eggs and/or nests. Sounds crazy, is unfortunately true, particularly in the UK.
My larger point, regardless of what channels the money is passing through (let's not get overly facile, Jesse, I can point to plenty of federal funds that go indirectly or directly to peregrine stuff, IMLS grants to the Peregrine Fund, federal pass-through funds to state agencies, etc)...the larger point is, we need better allocation of our limited resources.
Funny story, I saw a fed truck parked at Arch Rock the otherday...it's still there, hasn't moved in a week or more, best as I can tell. Says "Fees Work" on the side. Well, let's see...a $40k+ new pimped out Dodge one-ton, sitting idle....with a slogan on the side that's supposed to make me feel like my/our money is going to good use. You can't make this stuff up.
Now, I know there's probably a good reason to have bought that truck. And I bet that it didn't have anything at all to do with "hey, we've got an allocation for a truck, what should we get...gotta spend all the budget or they'll try to give us less next year." I've been a part of that mindset, and fully defended it from within. Maybe not the case here, but it is a consistent symptom in the agencies.
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Buju
Trad climber
the range of light
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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I wonder how many people who are on here bitching were actually affected by the closure?
This whole thread is just the same old supertopo whining.
Jo-lynne has it pretty spot on... Respecting the creatures of the rock does good things for your karma on the rock.
The Yosemite Fund pays for the research, and it is executed by a couple of dedicated, poorly paid researchers. Sorry to disappoint a few of you, but there is no evil scheme here. The park is simply following it's mandate to protect the ecosystem therin.
-Roger Putnam
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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So the birds live there, and we don't. We visit.
Our spreading of chemicals throughout the food chain brought them to the brink of extinction. Our visits can cause their reproduction to fail.
We have chosen, through the means of governance, to attempt the remediation of our damage by limiting our visits to their neighborhood. The governance being a human effort, it is necessarily an imperfect and somewhat clumsy mechanism. Gold star to whomever pointed that out first, you really scored there.
But we want to keep climbing around their home, because we are freedom-loving climbers and the man can't keep us down and the birds are doing fine, at least anecdotally, and why can't I take a hot shower anyhow if there's money from the big bad gubmint to keep these birds under expensive 24-7 observation?
Let's break it down:
benefit to birds: fledglings make it, species continues for the time being
cost to birds: zero
benefit to us: altruistic warm fuzzies
cost to us: El Cap climbing choices for four months reduced from 100 or so to 80-some.
Really, the only question here is: how important do you think you are?
If your survival depends on your ability to go climb the NA in the middle of summer, maybe you should just do it. Screw the birds. The uncountable other freedoms that the accidents of birth and history and technology have granted you mean nothing compared to this one right, and you should have it too. Stamp your little foot and poke your lip out and go and climb right through those stupid birds, they shouldn't have gone and tried to live smack dab in the middle of the most accessible proving ground for your massive sackliness.
So there.
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Buju
Trad climber
the range of light
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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My El-Cap Peregrine story:
My girlfriend and I had been planning on climbing Triple Direct on a specific weekend in september for a number of months. It was the only time she could get enough time off of work to do so. Unfortunately, Jeff Mauer passed away, and his memorial service was scheduled to be on that weekend that we had planned to climb.
It was a tough decision, but eventually we decided that climbing El Cap would be a celebration of Jeff and a personal way of remembering his adventerous lifestyle.
We blasted off and I didn't think about Jeff until Sunday morning, the day of his service. I was leading the pitch up the the Glowering spot and thought "Sh#t,...Jeff's memorial service is probably starting right now...Im such a terrible person for being up here instead of at the memorial..."
I looked behind me, and saw a peregrine dive out of the sky and take out a swift in a cloud of feathers, circle back past me with the swift in it's talons, and fly off towards the cathedrals.
I'm pretty sure that was Jeff saying that it was okay, all would be well, and he is looking out for the raptors of the park.
I truly did feel a burst of joy knowing they are back on El Cap...even though I did have plans in the closure area this spring.
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