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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Anyone know if the patent on the Alien cam is still in effect? One post on teh innertubes suggests it was filed in Dec 1988. That would suggest the patent has lapsed - Shanghai Custom Hardware can start running these off tomorrow?
(And no, I don't support the idea of outsourcing this, would never buy a cam from Shanghai.)
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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The basic Alien patent (4,923,160) has expired. Nobody in their right mind would buy the company CCH--there is simply too much baggage and potential for future liability. Nadia's best bet would be to try and negotiate an asset purchase agreement with another company that may want to manufacture Alien cams in the future.
However, as I stated previously, the value here is not going to amount to much--probably not more than the value of the building and land (assuming CCH owns their facility) plus the value of the manufacturing equipment (machinery) and existing inventory. Mention of a LBO for CCH did give me a good chuckle, though.
Curt
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Gene
Social climber
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=
Colorado Custom Hardware
Colorado Custom Hardware is now for Sale. Company is making the famous Alien Cams. If you are interested please e-mail us cchaliens@aol.com
=
Best regards,
Nadia Waggoner
production/office manager
Colorado Custom Hardware
115 E.Lyon Street
Laramie, Wyoming 82072
Good luck and godspeed Nadia.
Best wishes for a good outcome. Disregard the peanut gallery and uniformed speculators.
Gene
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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On the other hand, it's not always a good idea to ignore people who know what they're talking about.
Curt
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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@Curt- Actually, CCH had 2 patents on the Alien design; 4,923,160 and 4,832,289. IIRC one covered the internal springs and the other the sleeve trigger assembly. But it doesn't really matter anymore since both patents have expired (patent dates 5/90 and 5/89 respectively).
EDIT- Erm... Then again, I dunno offhand if 4,923,160 expired or not; depends on whether it falls under the old 17 year duration or new 20 year duration. I forget when the cutover date was...
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Well then what's the story with liability? Anyone here an attorney? If you buy out CCH for $1, then discover tomorrow that a cam failed and you have a $10M lawsuit against CCH, what happens?
It'd be almost better to shutter CCH, let the outstanding liabilities disappear, start a new co, hire on Nadia to teach you to run your plant/manufacture/etc. Buy CCH's old machinery (or not - again what if a machine fails, hurts your employee?) Just copy the Alien design, rebrand it. We'd all get our hybrids, the killer design lives on.
I'd bet someone who wants to start a climbing co has some kind of opportunity here. You could manufacture bigwall specialty gear - alien style hybrids, port-a-ledges, hooks, etc.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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adatesman, Even with 20 year patent protection, both of those patents would have expired, since the clock starts ticking on the application date.
Curt
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Three cheers for our future cams!
Thank you Nadia for taking the torch from Dave. May the Joy he brought to climbers everywhere stay with you always.
Much Great Love to the next bearer of the internal-spring soft-metal-cam torch.
The future is sparkling as ever.
best
e
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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...Well then what's the story with liability? Anyone here an attorney? If you buy out CCH for $1, then discover tomorrow that a cam failed and you have a $10M lawsuit against CCH, what happens?
Then the corporation has to defend against that lawsuit--or risk having a judgement entered against it. This particular problem can be avoided simply by buying the assets of the company instead of the actual shares of the corporation. In situations like CCH, a buyer would almost certainly want to pursue an asset purchase. The only downside is to the seller, who is then taxed on the sale proceeds as regular income--instead of the more favorable capital gains rates.
Disclaimer--I'm not an attorney, but my wife is.
Curt
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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The issue of what is called in legal jargon "successor liability" is at least somewhat more complex than Curt states above. A purchase of the assets (rather than the business itself) will not *necessarily* absolve the purchaser of all liabilities, in all jurisdictions.
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Gene
Social climber
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None of you valuation pundits know what is for sale until you have done your due diligence. I suspect none of you has done that. My best wishes to Nadia in selling whatever it is she is trying to sell. How is ownership of CCH held? What about that $50,000,000 prepaid liability policy? What about those wonderful gizmos Dave had on the drawing board when he passed? Have you considered all the non-recourse loans involved in the business? Yeah, I’m making this up, but until you understand all aspects of what Nadia is trying to sell, why don’t you shut your pie holes? Your uninformed speculations and opinions based on unsupported assumptions adds nothing to the discussion.
If you are interested, find out what you need to know. If you're not interested, don't fart in the punch bowl.
Or Ready, Fire, Aim.
g
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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...The issue of what is called in legal jargon "successor liability" is at least somewhat more complex than Curt states above. A purchase of the assets (rather than the business itself) will not *necessarily* absolve the purchaser of all liabilities, in all jurisdictions...
The exceptions you allude to are extremely limited in nature. Naturally, you would want to have an attorney competent in this area of law draft any asset purchase agreement.
http://www.kamletlaw.com/NewsPage.aspx?id=Publications&article=122721874749265
Curt
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Gene, I'm sure you are sympathetic to CCH and all, but there are only so many ways to value a company. Yes, rigorous diligence is required before committing to a specific number, but it's not very likely that CCH is worth very much--sorry.
I am clearly speculating here--but the assumptions I'm making are pretty darn reasonable.
Curt
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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I'm confused why discussing the value of something listed as "for Sale" (see title) is so off-limits. Especially when the posting was solicited by the owner. This discussion is nothing against the owner - they made great cams - they just don't have a business that sells easily. The title of the tread is "for Sale" after all. It's not a job posting for a manager, it's "for Sale". It's not manage my company with me, it's buy my company.
And seriously, this is CCH, not someone's old port-a-ledge. Kind of like the Mig-19 that was up for sale on Ebay. We're gonna poke at it a bit.
And to answer:
Company is for sale - who care's how it's held (likely one person, Nadia). The whole thing is for sale. You really want a minority shareholder around?
Prepaid insurance? I don't think that's how most insurance co's roll.
Paying for un-released R&D - I've got a bridge to sell you.
Debt - only destroys remaining value.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have an F-16 to bid on...
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Gene
Social climber
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Curt,
No bias or interest in CCH. My point is that unless one truly knows what is being offered, speculation is just noise. You're probably correct that CCH ain't worth much. As an example of my point, look at the classic real estate situation. Two identical buildings in equally desirable locations are for sale. One has a 30 year lease to a creditworthy tenant. The other is leased for six months as head shop by the daughter of the RE owner. They are essentially the same except for the leases. Which is more marketable and worth more?
The devil is in the details of which we know knott. That's all.
g
EDIT: A client had a business worth about $2.1 million until it was discovered that it had about $850K in retained earnings that the IRS signed off on. Kinda changed the value.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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First off I want to say thank you to anyone who takes on the New Alien cam project. Cheers!
As the person who probably spends the most time thinking, staring at, and climbing USA's bigwalls I'll fill in some details for more recent comers:
Ten years ago everyone wanted to buy CCH, or get a lease on the patent for the internal spring design. I worked at the Mt. Shop in '02 and '03 and Ted told me that every Trade show a different vendor pulled him aside and opened his/her trenchcoat to reveal an Alien knockoff. 'As soon as we close the deal with Dave, or the patent is up' seemed to be the mindset. But Dave wouldn't budge on leasing the patent, allow other's to contract making cams for him(reportedly one distributorship offered to buy CGI machines and make the cams if they could have them to sell, such was the market share in the early 2000s), or sell the company. I remember Michael Haag, one of the Splitter cam inventors, telling me that their cams ultimately failed to take off because they needed the internal spring design.
So it seemed like Dave would ride out his last decades with a fat REI contract that kept his shop humming and left every other store in the world desperate to get his goods.
Then the cams started breaking. Distributors stopped carrying Aliens faster than Hans and Yuji climbed the Nose. But those of us that climb in Yosemite all the time(and a few other places like Colorado and the Gunks, no?) were so hooked we didn't care. Bounce test all your cams and you know they're good.
The cam breaking scandal created the real momentum for all the big companies to abandon dreams of an exact Alien knockoff and come out with something "better". Too bad those companies never came here to Yosemite and actually had people use they're cams a ton before releasing them, so they would know that they could compete with a product so uniquely bitchin that people would pay full price even knowing that some units had failed.
So now the folks at Trango, Bd, Metolius and so on have too much time and money invested in their supposedly superior small cams to entertain buying a company that makes a product that directly competes with one they already own/produce.
I write all this that hopefully someone who is new to the industry might recognize a unique opportunity in CCH, one that is perhaps not as invaluable as this current discussion would lead you to believe. Rest assured that even today, when the Mt. Shop gets a shipment of Aliens in they still sell out within a week. Every time. People still email me or ask me in person every week where they can buy Aliens, or tell me how they could not imagine having climbed they're last big wall route as clean without hybrid Aliens.
True, there seem to have been some parts of the CCH operation that undermined the company's reputation. But the massive interest in these products, despite these problems, should underscore how valuable they are to the climbing community.
Keep the Alien Love alive!
many cheers
e
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Erik Sloan
climber
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One of the most easily recognizable impacts Aliens have had on our current cams is the proliferation of the color-coded reinforced thumb loop, something that BD reps used to say their company would never make on a cam. Every year that Aliens were at the top it seemed another company switched over to nice, color-coded loops. Thanks Dave!
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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I hope Moses buys em!
Thor
Nohtin scarier, than an Alien with a Tomahawk!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 25, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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Anything ever happen with this?
Seems like they would at least sell the patent
Peace
Karl
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 25, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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patents are expired?
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