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cowpoke
climber
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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I know of no empirical data consistent with the psychiatrist's hypothesis, mentioned in the OP. Moreover, I would argue that most theory and closely-related work are inconsistent with the hypothesis.
Some social-personality and clinical psychologists have suggested that sensation seeking is a trait-like personality characteristic; in turn, it is argued that people drawn to new experiences and high-sensation experiences are more likely than others to engage in risky behavior (e.g., climbing, drug use, etc.). Work such as the following fits in this literature: Serotonin transporter polymorphisms and measures of impulsivity, aggression, and sensation seeking among African-American cocaine-dependent individualsPsychiatry Research, 2002, 110, pg:103.
As far as I know, however, most studies indicate that sensation seeking is negatively correlated with depression (or unrelated), the most common precursor to suicide.
The only hypothetical links I can generate are contrived. For example, sensation-seeking climbers may be at heightened risk for drug use and, in turn, at heightened risk for depression.
This forum might provide anecdotal evidence consistent with the first link in that chain. The link between drug use and depression, however, is often due to the increased likelihood of using drugs due to being depressed, rather than the reverse.
In short, I'm skeptical.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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Suicide, generally speaking, is an extreme case of overriding the instinct of self preservation. Any sort of riding on the edge, be it climbing or base, is a less extreme case of the same override.
I disagree with this statement.
Suicide is an attempt to escape a nightmare.
Actually accomplishing it is not exactly easy. The reason climbers accomplish it more often then say accountants, is because we have learned to deal with fear. I think any appearance that climbers are more suicidal then other groups could be attributed to the likelyhood that they would be more successful at an attempt because they have the physical courage to chose a more lethal method, and this success rate would then make them more noticeable. This would be true of any sport that requires physical courage. Base jumbers, race car drivers, ect..
I have been suicidal from childhood. I think that it is a combination of physical problems such as poor brain chemistry, and spiritual problems. I fully understand that some don't believe in spirit, so I have no answer for you. Your only hope is to find the right combination of pills, exercise, diet and lifestyle that will keep your brain chemicals in some sort of manageable balance. That can be quite a challenge. Those who have never dealt with long term chronic depression have no idea. Most folks have dealth with situational depression and try to liken it to that. Their dog died and they became depressed. They went out and climbed a bunch and got a new dog and now they are not depressed. So they think that it is fairly easy to overcome depression. Long term chronic depression is a whole nother ball of wax and is not so easily overcome.
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LDunn
Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
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Most Defiantly Suicide prone Suicide rock that is Sun dance btw
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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a buddy of mine made mention of similar thoughts long ago in passing...
then I looked into it...
you can find eveidence that climbers that actually commmited suicide were self destructive before the fateful act..
but there is the overwhelming evidence that the majority of climbers are no "prone" to self destruct (suicide) just by the fact that they love or feel the need to climb.
The same arguement might be made about people that smoke cigarettes, or use addictive drugs (not that climbing is an addictive drug, but something tells me that once one has accomplished a climbing goal, the tendancy is to move on to the next goal.. once a person runs out of possible goals.. who knows what happens?)
So, I don't subscribe to this line of thinking that just because I climb I am more inclined to get rid of me at some point in the future....
Not to mention.. what does this claim say about those who climb to feel as though they are empowering themselves through these actions (pushing themselves to a goal, falling, etc., etc.)
the arguement no hold water (IMO)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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Studly said: Couchmaster, I've seen some of that stuff you climb on. You definitely have suicidal tendencies or are somewhat looney. or both, ha!
and you called my Gorge crag choss......wtf,just not right! ;)
LOL! Must be both!
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Mar 25, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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Climbers are considered suicidal.
Obese folks sitting on the couch with a bucket of ice cream watching reality TV are not.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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Some are some aren't- just like non-climbers
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 25, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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more than likely, climbing probably saved more individuals lives vs suicide...
'just saying...
 ec
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gonzo chemist
climber
a crucible
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Mar 25, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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I guess this kind of mirrors what KSolem wrote,
Great risk can bring great reward.
I might not find a fat monetary reward at the top of each climb I complete, but I frequently find something so much more fulfilling...
I am wealthy because of my experiences, not my bank account...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 25, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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Werner climbs?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 25, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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within sorrow hides hope.
and this hope, though untruthful, embodies inspiration.
as seekers, we must allow sorrow its rightful passage between our smiles.
then, and only then, do we discover the righteous explosion of of magic and wonder,
whose outcome is glorius.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Mar 25, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
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I am really having problems. If the moment is about to happen who should I call?
Juan
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 26, 2010 - 06:12am PT
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hey there say, all....
as to suicide prone...
suicide is a choice that comes into play, when a key issue in one's
life has finally become unbearabale, so much so, to the point that all hope is gone, for ever overcoming, or even fathoming to do so, as to said-issue...
it can sneak up on one, after lengthy issues, or, it can hit suddenly, after a sudden heavy blow...
this can happen to anyone, anywhere, at any point in life, no matter what one's life style is, climber or not...
home-body, adventurer, child, older folks, etc...
keep an eye and ear open to your loved ones...
god bless...
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Mar 26, 2010 - 06:27am PT
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First explain to me what is normal behavior... I need to figure this out first before I can attempt working on your question.
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cowpoke
climber
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Mar 26, 2010 - 10:55am PT
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Juan,
There are suicide hotlines online and crisis center in almost every metro area that do not require insurance. If your post is not a troll, I strongly suggest you do not wait for "the moment." Start seeking help right now.
A good place to start.
Peace,
Eric
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Mar 26, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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The approach to Suicide is certainly shorter than the approach to Tahquitz.
You can add Raleigh Collins to the successful suicide list.
Some people with abnormal brain chemistry may be drawn to climbing as a means of self medication, but it hardly means that climbers are suicidal. Even if the proportion of suicides who are climbers is greater than that of the total population who are climbers, it hardly establishes causality. Reminds me of a joke (we could use a joke, right?)
One day after sleeping badly, an anatomist went to his frog laboratory and removed from a cage one frog with white spots on its back. He placed it on a table and drew a line just in front of the frog. "Jump frog, jump!" he shouted. The little critter jumped two feet forward. In his lab book, the anatomist scribbled, "Frog with four legs jumps two feet."
Then, he surgically removed one leg of the frog and repeated the experiment. "Jump frog, jump!" To which, the frog leaped forward 1.5 feet. He wrote down, "Frog with three legs jumps 1.5 feet."
Next, he removed a second leg. "Jump frog, jump!" The frog managed to jump a foot. He scribbled in his lab book, "Frog with two legs jumps one foot."
Not stopping there, the anatomist removed yet another leg. "Jump frog, jump!" The poor frog somehow managed to move 0.5 feet forward. The scientist wrote, "Frog with one leg jumps 0.5 feet."
Finally, he eliminated the last leg. "Jump frog, jump!" he shouted, encouraging forward progress for the frog. But despite all its efforts, the frog could not budge. "Jump frog, jump!" he cried again. It was no use; the frog would not response. The anatomist thought for a while and then wrote in his lab book, "Frog with no legs is deaf."
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nevahpopsoff
Boulder climber
the woods
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Mar 26, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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This subject fasinates me,I have recently been involved in the euthenisa of my cat, I held her and felt her pulse stop, a dog, and my Dad's horse. Humans don't really have this option, a workmate's Dad is as good as dead from cancer of the entire body, yet he has to stick it out to the miserable end. I think about Ernest Hemmingwy, Hunter Thompson, Guy Waterman, go out on your own terms. Just don't blow your head off with a shotgun while you have guests in the house, makes you a bad host.
I climb because it's FUN, I climb harder, more risky stuff, when I'm bummed, because the focus distracts me from what's bothering me.
And I listen to people bitch all the time, and wonder why they even want to live if they are so miserable.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Mar 26, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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104 shows himself , again. to be a really excellent human,
I'm in too Juan,
anytime, just shoot me an email, ill send my phone number,
Ed
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 26, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
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I just saw Juan's post now.
Suicide is a very real and a very grave topic. It is a serious problem that people use to scream out for help. Sometimes we don't hear it or see it in time.
Suicide is a very touchy subject in my extended family. There is suicide in my families past. I take it very, very seriously. Some people for whatever reason reach such a state and low of despair they can not think or feel their way out of it. At that moment they need help. They are not in their right mind. They needed help long before then, didn't know how to ask, and maybe none of us listened?
Juan, don't do it. Seek help from a friend or family member. Perhaps you know someone here at ST that you feel comfortable talking to. Please do. If you want to talk with me please do. Suicide is very personal with me.
Personally, I know what suicide does to those who are left behind -- the family and close friends. You can not believe how bad it hurts those you leave behind. I do not think anyone wants to really hurt their family and friends, it is just that they can not see past the pain of the moment, the depression. Please seek help immediately.
I know how bad it hurts those you would leave behind. For me, no matter what, suicide is never an option. No matter how bad it gets, I would never do that to myself, my family, or my friends. I do not blame my mother. She was hurting beyond belief. If she was in her right mind, if she knew the pain that she caused by leaving us I know in my heart of hearts she wouldn't have taken her life and left me and my sister. I miss my mother everyday.
Do not do it. You don't want to hurt the ones you love. Talk to them. Everyone hurts and everyone goes through depression at sometime, some go through more than others.
GET HELP.
Glenn
(aka "Klimmer")
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