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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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if you get there sans permit, do they turn you around?
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful British Columbia
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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hoipolloi - if folks get turned around at trail head perhaps they just beat an alternate path thru to the base of the cables. Then word gets out there is a possible alternate route up the slabs under the face. Great place for more NPS safety problems
A toll both should be at the cables manned and staffed 24/7 ... lol
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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Up to what point are you allowed to hike up the trail without a permit before being tooled? Vernal Falls, Little Yosemite Valley, the shoulder?
So if I climb a "technical" route, am I able to use the cables and trails down or do I have to rap off?
How much is it if I don't have a permit?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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Probably cost more to post a guard, checking permits, then to add another
cable to make two lanes for up and down hikers.
Widening and repairing trails has been an ongoing process in the Yosemite wilderness for a long time. The people standing in the way of adding another lane to the cables are wrong thinkers and if they can't be fired should be demoted to cleaning porta potties.
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Double D
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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The idea of issuing permits has merit for crowd controll but I concur that it avoids the main problems: 1) Log jams & 2)Overall capacity of the existing cables.
Zion issues permits for canyons and wall camping. It's a pain in the butt, however it seems to work. Perhaps a time window would work (2hour windows) although it's a long approach and lots of folks will miscalculate their abilities but it would give some releif to the log jam effect.
Why not just put one more cable line to accomodate a side for traffic going up and the other side for down? Minimal impact on HD while maximizing capacity. Sort of like an escalater at the airport but without the movement. The center cable could be two cables with spacers to accomodate both directions.
OR...just hire a bunch of climbing guides on a full time basis and put up a 5.6 sport route a few feet away.
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Greenland Fishery
Trad climber
Toxic Spill, Wisconsin
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Take dem cables down. Real climbers don't need em, un so.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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On the Saturday during Facelift 2010, about 2 in the afternoon.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful British Columbia
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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Probably cost more to post a guard, checking permits, then to add another cable to make two lanes for up and down hikers.
Exactly, therefore it's a perfect government solution instead of addressing the real problem which is not having a 2-way cable system
Paper, rock, scissors
Day Use Permits to Address Visitor Safety Program NPS knows paper beats rock
Time for a Study program costing triple the 3rd cable installation to further investigate the problem
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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I just got an email from Ken Yager to put my helmet on on the Supertopo forum. Great dialog!!
Pate to reply,
"You work there, and for the government. Tax dollars pay your salary, and pay for the needs of the NPS. But guess what? You manage those places FOR ME and all the other citizens of this country."
First of all, I (thankfully) am just a messenger announcing this 2 year interim measure. Although I would love to be a part of the next stage of planning for a long term solution, I was not a part of the planning for the interim measure. Given the time constraints, I think they have a workable plan that will ease the overcrowding (and safety risks) of the cables for a minimal cost.
The idea of this plan is to manage for the safety of visitors, and you could make the argument pretty easily that it is also a more enjoyable experience not to have an hour wait to ascend a corralled cable line. I'm sure the Wilderness implications will be looked at carefully during the Environmental Assessment (per NEPA). We get 4 million visitors here a year, and unfortunately there has to be some limitations to use in order to protect the Yosemite environment, and to insure the integrity of the Park for future generations. We have already been sued twice in the past ten years for not addressing user capacity issues in regards to the Merced Wild and Scenic River. These are your fellow Americans asking us through litigation to reduce the amount of use to the Parks.
It is true that tax dollars pay our salaries, but the appropriations are more and more limited. This is why Congress instituted the entrance fee programs, this is why you have to pay fees for camping. If you would like for congress to increase NPS appropriations, by all means contact your US Representatives and Senators.
Sure, drive into Yosemite for free, enjoy the views for free, touch the trees, the rocks and the water for free, but if you want to spend the night, build a fire, hike the trails, sleep in the wilderness- well get out the credit card because it's time to start spending. You got in free, but the experience is going to cost you some kickback on top of your taxes.
I probably should have spelled this out earlier, but Wilderness Permits in Yosemite are still free. You actually have it backwards on this one. You have to pay for entrance, but when you want to go on an overnight trip into the Wilderness the permit is free. The primary purpose of the permit is to reduce impacts associated with over use of certain trail-heads. In the case of climbers, we don't even need a wilderness permit for our overnight use.
The NPS, Yosemite Management, and our congressional representation have historically avoided any form of limiting use precisiely because of the level of public outcry that it generates. However, as Pate mentioned, we must manage the park resources for the public, and that means for public safety and to protect the environment of the park. It is no surprise to anyone involved that people will have a lot of issues with this change in policy on Half Dome. Once again, I encourage everyone to submit comments once the planning process begins later this year for a longterm policy for the Half Dome Cables route.
Thanks,
Jesse
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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The introductory period may be a bit messy, although the NPS does have experience with such programs. Still, it only applies to Friday, Saturday, Sunday and public holidays. I wonder what effort the NPS will make to educate those buying permits? Seems an opportunity to say a few things about safe and appropriate behaviours, preparation, equipment, etc.
With the money involved, it certainly doesn't seem much of a cash cow for the NPS - although its global budget is apparently being frozen.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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Jesse - I don't think anyone is blaming you for this. We know you are the messenger.
OK, maybe a couple are :)
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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Nice shot Happiegrrl, that was actually a pretty light day for cable use.
Up to what point are you allowed to hike up the trail without a permit before being tooled? Vernal Falls, Little Yosemite Valley, the shoulder?
The shoulder is where the "tools" shall be. They will not be stopping people before the subdome. On your way down from sending the RNWFR in your record beating time, say hello to the Ranger, and ask him how the summer has been.
Jesse
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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Approximately 84,000 people climbed to the top of Half Dome in 2008.
Wow. That comes out to an average of roughly 500 people every day, 7 days a week, if the cables are up from late May to October. Pretty amazing.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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I probably should have spelled this out earlier, but Wilderness Permits in Yosemite are still free.
Not if you want a popular trailhead and want a reservation. You can play games with the words, but for the basic purpose of getting a permit, you will need a reservation and hence they aren't free. The only way they are free is if you just show up and take whatever trailhead is open. I know this is just a word game, but it is one the government plays and I don't care for it. It cost money to get a permit and thus shouldn't be described as free.
http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/wildpermits.htm
Wilderness Permit Reservations
Wilderness permit reservations are available up to 24 weeks (168 days) in advance when the wilderness permit reservation office is open (early January through October). Reservations are not available two or fewer days in advance (see below for information about first-come, first-served permits). (View a table showing when you can make a reservation for a specific day.)
The cost for each confirmed reservation is $5 plus $5 per person. This fee is non-refundable and non-transferable.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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Mighty hiker,
I wonder what effort the NPS will make to educate those buying permits? Seems an opportunity to say a few things about safe and appropriate behaviours, preparation, equipment, etc.
That is exactly one of the outlined reasons for the permitting. It provides an education opportunity for all of the above. I've been down the cables 10 times or so (never tried going up them), and I'm always struck by the lack of water, storm gear, adequate footwear, and skill level of many people on the cables. Almost every time I observe at least one hiker literally on his/her knees "hanging on for dear life". This provides us with an outreach opportunity to better prepare Half Dome hikers.
With the money involved, it certainly doesn't seem much of a cash cow for the NPS - although its global budget is apparently being frozen.
Once again Anders, your right. The $1.50 goes to cover the costs of the company who is contracted to administer the permits. We have had to apply for different funding sources to pay for the seasonal rangers who will have to patrol Half Dome on theses weekends.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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On your way down from sending the RNWFR in your record beating time, say hello to the Ranger, and ask him how the summer has been
OH SNAP!
BTW what is the record for the slowest ascent?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:08pm PT
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from personal past ranger encounters that I have had... the Ranger is always right...they know what they are doing....don't say stuff to make them mad....or else they will put you in the dirt.....they own the parks.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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John Moosie,
I stand by my statement that the permits are free, but I understand your frustration of the "word game". Maybe we should state that walk up permits are free, but reserved permits cost $5 per person. Would that satisfy you?
The non-profit Yosemite Association (this year there name will be changing as they are combining with Yosemite Fund) charges the reservation fees. It goes towards paying for their (NGO) staff that run the reservation system.
If you want a free permit you will get one. You might not be able to follow the hundreds of other backpackers up to Little Yosemite Valley and the John Muir Trail, but you will get a permit to backpack to a less crowded and just as spectacular location of Yosemite. If you are willing to come a day before first thing in the morning your chances of getting a permit to the more crowded areas are very good....for free.
I used to work issuing permits, and know that most people are thankful for the reservation system, and have no problem paying a fee to cover the costs of this system. It speeds up their wait, ensures that they get to go exactly where they planned, and provides them with more time to plan that trip.
So the system covers the needs of the spontaneous and thrifty as well as those who want a more secure plan for their trip.
Thanks for helping me clarify.
Jesse
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
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Thanks for your words, time, and patience Jesse!
Erik
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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The permits are only for Friday Saturday and Sunday and Holidays.
I don't necessarily agree with the limits myself, but I can see why the park has concerns.
Maybe the number of people up there has become too high? I worked up there for a couple of months, and boy it could get crowded. I don't know if the crowds I saw were 800 people or 1100 people like they say on crowded weekends.
At first I hated the crowds as everyone does, but I grew to like them. I was just looking at them wrong. Instead of using Wilderness glasses, I watched the world walk by me everyday as a cultural experience.
There were so many people, with one goal in mind. Some were ultra fit, ultra prepared types with camelbacks and special moisture wicking clothes, others were old folks carrying just a few items in a plastic sack. Others were hiking with their families ad their parents had done with them.
For some,this might be the greatest adventure that they had ever been on. Others, this was their wilderness experience, learning what water to drink, learning that they should have brought a light.
After a while, I thought the stream of people was beautiful, but I wasn't in charge of cleaning the compost toilet, so my view could be more positive.
If you want to get away, try clouds rest, or head past LYV toward Merced Lake, go to lost lake, or just walk 100 feet off the main trail, cuz that's where everybody is.
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