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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:35am PT
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High Fructose,
Lemme comment on some of your statements.
"Food for Thought: The Christian Church today is no longer "an institution of higher education." This speaks volumes as to (a) why it's under fire and (b) its future."
1. The Christian Church isn't, and never was, an institution of higher education. It is the body of men and women who believe in and are committed to God. The God of the Bible and only that God. It's not a building or even an institution. Therefore, your conclusions are pretty thin.
Long ago, it chose to fight science (in the subjects of how the world works and how life works) rather than adapt to its revelations and story. Bad choice. Kinda like Scott Roeder.
Comparing the Christian Faith, in any way to a messed up man, a murderer, with hatred and vengeance at his core, shows you don't really know much about Christianity. A comment like that pretty much invalidates your arguments and shows you have some pretty strong feelings for some reason about something you know very little about.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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I just re-read my previous post. Don't interpret that to mean I'm a violent man. Just very confrontational and outspoken, sometimes even profane.
I'm a pretty peaceful man, believe it or not.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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Micronut- I like your TRs and believe (i.e., mentally hold) you're very nice. So let's agree to disagree on THIS subject. Okay?
So I think in your last post you intentionally played loose with language. (1) Of course, Christianity, the Church, whichever, is an institution. (2) Everything's relative: All through the early and medieval centuries, the peoples of religious cultures (e.g., Christian cultures in Europe) turned to their religious institutions for life guidance... not only for support and solidarity (social, spiritual) but for help in making sense of how the world works, for explaining how the world works. This was so because religions (for us in the West esp: Judaism to Christianity to Islam) were among the world's leading institutions of learning, education at the time. Esp for the general populace, of which perhaps only 10 per cent were literate.
As a dentist or md (I'm sorry I don't know which) I cannot believe you don't know any of this. And to remind us both, I've said nothing new on this thread. The conflict between science and religion has been raging on-- lately I just decided here on the Taco to participate. In short, all three Abrahamic religions make so-called truth-claims about-- I'll say it again-- how the world works and how life works. They're incorrect. It's straight forward as that-- they're incorrect. Which is why (the institutions of) religion and science are in conflict. It's the only reason they're in conflict.
When religions stop making so-called truth-claims about how the world works and how life works in terms of facts (what is), then the conflict will resolve and they won't be an obstacle in the path of science education (a subject dear to me) any longer.
EDIT (3) Regarding my allusion to Scott Roeder in my previous post: Bad choices like bad beliefs have consequences. It applies to "institutions" as well as to individuals.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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Yeah, High Fructose, I'm cool to disagree on this one. No big deal. In my opinion though, the Christian church isn't under fire or struggling or at risk....Sure, there is a trend over the last 20 years wherein marginal believers, who at one point loosely affiliated themselves with the faith are finding themselves no longer committed to the Church, the "numbers" of real Christians hasn't changed.
There is no longer much social reason to be a Christian as there once was. And perhaps the coming years will see more persecution of real Christians in America as it becomes more secularized. That just means it will bring into more clarity the real number of Christians out there. In comparison to the large numbers of churchgoers who kinda just filled the pews for reasons other than committment to their faith in Christ. That's cool by us Christians. Doesn't really change anything.
See you around. I'm off for a night climbing mission. Gotta get up in an hour.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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Hang in there, micronut, there still are a lot of us out there. Sometimes we stray off the trail, but we know where the base is...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:50am PT
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Ummm, actually, many Christians, and many Christian brands, are quite accepting of science, the theory of evolution, and the modern world. Maybe not fundamentalists, Baptists, and such, but still quite a lot. The Roman Catholic church has accepted evolution, and a universe that isn't geocentric, although of course it has a lot else to answer for.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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Ummm, actually, many Christians, and many Christian brands, are quite accepting of science, the theory of evolution, and the modern world. Maybe not fundamentalists, Baptists, and such, but still quite a lot. The Roman Catholic church has accepted evolution, and a universe that isn't geocentric, although of course it has a lot else to answer for.
That's quite true, Anders. Well said.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
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I am for capital punishment for extreme cases. I mean c'mon guys, when a socialpathic serial killer is left to sit around and watch t.v. despite how well it is documented on how he enjoyed killing... That is wrong. I personally think he is too dangerous to be left alive.
AFS
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
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I am for capital punishment for extreme cases. I mean c'mon guys, when a socialpathic serial killer is left to sit around and watch t.v. despite how well it is documented on how he enjoyed killing... That is wrong. I personally think he is too dangerous to be left alive.
AFS
Thank you. I'm glad a respected woman said that here. I feel the same way.
It's not a sadistic desire to to see people die, it's society's decision that there is no way for this person to be allowed back with others. He/she is a deadly threat to others. They have to be put down...like a rabid dog.
It's unfortunate. But sometimes there is no cure for inherent evil.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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Anastasia-
Bluering-
With all due respect, pretty darn inconsistent, your overall thinking here.
Gandi- You must be the change you want to see in the world.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Not really...
Have you ever known a socialpath? I went to school with one and trust me, he is not a human being. A person that can inflict great harm and take such joy in it is not part of the human race. The key word I am using here is "joy." He was not acting out in anger, or jealousy, etc. He took "pleasure" in hurting people. Years later he was caught for rape and attempted murder.
I know down to my bones that when he is free, he will keep going. Some people really are evil.
I hope you never meet him or anyone like him.
AFS
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Gene
Social climber
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This thread is wandering into the question of capital punishment......
I believe it is something created by man trying to play God. Doesn't work for me.
Maybe the topic for yet another OT thread..... Maybe knott.
gm
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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Today is judgment day for Scott Roeder.
Remember, he's a devout traditional Christian. His religious upbringing taught him that inside each of us is a ghost (a ghostly person) that was put there by Jehovah, that this ghostly person exists in the womb of the mother even in the embryonic or fetal state, that obedience to Jehovah requires protecting this ghostly person at all costs.
So Scott Roeder felt justified in killing the doctor. And umpteen millions (raised on the same pre-scientific ignorance regarding how life works) agree with him. For them, Roeder's act was not "insane". Rather, for them, it was "living up to" his faith, his religious beliefs.
Time to get real. Time to be honest.
The false supposition (really a bronze-age stupidity) maintained by religious institutions: a ghostly person exists in the body machine.
This is the 21st century. It's time we discarded this bronze-age ignorance, ignorance for which Dr. Tiller paid his life.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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Attorney: What are your feelings on the practice of abortion?
Scott Roeder-
“From conception forward, it is murder. It is not man’s job to take life. Only in cases of self-defense or defense of others.”
If anyone bothered to think in terms of (a) traditional theological doctrine and (b) ensoulment of the person at conception, he could see Scott Roeder's argument.
"The man is obviously very mentally ill."
Insofar as Scott Roeder's "insane" or "very mentally ill" it is because he failed to see the Bible Story as a 2,000 year-old hand-me-down narrative (instead of reality).
Scott Roeder, though you blew it in adapting to the modern understanding of things (e.g., how the world works and how life works), you do get high marks for at least trying to "live up to" traditional Christian teaching and not being a hypocrite.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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TGT said You have an incredibly ignorant and intolerant view of your fellow citizens
Sorry I missed this the first time through because the black text doesn't show up that well in front of the black pot.
Anyway, the case of Dr. Tiller is a sad one and it's just as sad to see the insane amount of propaganda being spread about him. There were numerous testimonials by women in the days after his death whom he had talked OUT of getting first trimester abortions. From what I understand the late term abortions he did were for medically nonviable children that would have never survived birth or perhaps only for hours afterwards. This has been twisted by Bill O'reiley and the like into him doing elective, medically unnecessary abortions because he was a money hungry baby eater. It's all been very sad. I'm glad that the trial went largely without incident and I certainly hope they do not execute him. That would make this even more stupid.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I can't think of too harsh of a penalty for those who commit heinous crimes in the name of religious zealotry.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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from CNN link @ 1:50 PST
" Anti-abortion activist to be sentenced in doctor's slaying"
he's a farking murderer not an "activist"
give him the "right of transportation" and be done. no more martyrs.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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Scott Roeder, the man convicted of murdering Wichita abortion provider George Tiller, was sentenced Thursday to the "Hard 50," meaning Roeder will serve 50 years before being eligible for parole.
As Roeder was leaving the courtroom, he yelled at prosecutors that the blood of the unborn is on their hands. Security quickly escorted him out of the courtroom.
Roeder called Dr. Tiller a "hit man" for the state of Kansas and spoke of judgment day coming and God avenging the deaths of aborted babies. Then he started reading from Why shoot an abortionist? by Christian terrorist Paul Hill, who was executed for murdering an abortion provider.
And it went on and on and on. It was as if Roeder were trying to filibuster his way out. Judge Warren Wilbert grew tired of it all.
Wilbert told Roeder that his sentencing hearing was his chance to convince him that he should get a lesser sentence, "not a soapbox for your political views."
Political views, no. Religious views, yes. Get real. Every one needs to get real and call it what it is.
So lame. Reminds me of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell b.s.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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It's obvious he's nuts.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Should we also mitigate the heinous acts of "Muslim Terrorists" by saying they are nuts?
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