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pc
climber
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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Frick! I've been reading contracts all day. All I saw in the headline was...French Bulls Fail on Women
Made me take a second look.
And on the OP...Sad that we're in a worldwide state of non freedom. Seems we're just going backward somehow.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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As it applies to the facial coverings that some Muslim women are forced to wear, the government ought to seek to ensure that those women have the right to choose how to dress, and confront the problem which is the marginalization of women in some Islamic sects.
The Burqa is a symptom, not a problem itself.
Okay...
Although, as Ontheedge pointed out, this is all pretty moot as it relates to our legal system since it wouldn't fly here.
So which one is it? Our culture should accept this?
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UncleDoug
Mountain climber
Places unkown
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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Slutty women are everywhere,
You mean like your wife?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
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Zeta, how do you feel about the French ruling? Regarding full facial covering in a Western society?
Please be honest and not pc or wishy-washy....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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Don't worry, Cragman, my wife just walked by and saw the post...she doesn't give a crap either. And she said, "I don't even own a bikini!".
Doug is an angry man. Good to have his foul mouth back to counter mine though!
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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As for the Sikhs...they're Hindu's man, why ya gotta bring that into it? All the Sikhs I've met are cool and embrace the American lifestyle here. They practice their religion and accept ours. That's America, Johnson!!!
Many of my students are Sikhs, I corrected your spelling errors, and some of my relatives are Hindus,well jack Hindus, never call a Sikh a Hindu or visa versa, like calling a born again Christan a Muslim, Completely different, even more different monotheistic religion vs. polytheistic religion. Ask a Sikh what he or she thinks of Gandhi. Call one of my Sikhs a Hindu or Muslin you open a real can of whoop-ass.
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zeta
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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Zeta, how do you feel about the French ruling? Regarding full facial covering in a Western society?
Please be honest and not pc or wishy-washy....
Honestly, I think what France is doing is a mistake, but it also doesn't surprise me. There's a fair amount of intolerance/fear of Islam in Europe (and in the US) and there's been a lot of recent legislation that reflects this (see Swittzerland's recent ruling on the issue of mosque minarets).
This could be argued so many ways:--as a legal issue of religious freedom, the importance of religious tolerance, or a feminist/anthro. critique (how the concept of 'rights' is a western concept; or how veiling looks different and has different meanings in different places)...but I'll go with a pragmatic argument:
what France is about to do is only going to further galvanize Islamic fundamentalists and make French Muslims feel further marginalized and discriminated against... both of which are not good for anyone
anyways, i'm exiting this crazy fray...carry on!
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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Banning trench coats seems like a great idea,still time to get it into the State of the Union too......
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 26, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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Thanks, Zeta! That's what I wanted to hear....honesty. I can understand not wanting to be a part of the rhetoric and name-calling here.
I will comment though...
There's a fair amount of intolerance/fear of Islam in Europe (and in the US) and there's been a lot of recent legislation that reflects this (see Swittzerland's recent ruling on the issue of mosque minarets).
Do they have reason to have "intolerance"? I think so, and I can provide links, but I think you already know what I mean.
what France is about to do is only going to further galvanize Islamic fundamentalists and make French Muslims feel further marginalized and discriminated against... both of which are not good for anyone
So what should France do, capitulate to Islamic tradition and laws in a French/Christian state? French muslims weren't forced to go to France. If they can't handle a secular state based in Christian belief, shouldn't they go elsewhere?
Thanks again for your thoughts, Zeta! I do respect your stance, maybe just disagree a bit...Thanks.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
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Thanks for chiming in, sully.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Currently in San Diego
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Blue- I am not suggesting that our culture should accept anyone forcing anyone to wear/not wear anything. Dress codes are lame but in any manifestation but should be only for voluntary things like jobs or schools that you have the ability to leave.
My point was that our legal system would probably not ban a garment like the french did. I think that banning the garment is a band-aid and doesnt address the problem which is the subjugation of women that is taking place.
They can ban whatever clothing they want- that won't fix peoples attitudes/mindsets/hearts.
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JoeSimo
Trad climber
New York
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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I think people have misconceptions about democracies in that they are completely free societies where anything goes. If the government infringes on anyones right to use drugs, walk around naked, or practice 14th century religious laws then the government is being oppressive and intolerant. Democracies are just governments ruled by the people. If a majority of the people say you cannot wear your Burqas then by law you cannot.
Part of me thinks its a stupid idea in the first place, while another part is in favor of it. A vast majority of Muslim immigrants to Europe refuse to assimilate into European society. They insist on forming their own enclaves and to be ruled by their own laws. In essence they want to the luxuries of western society while rejecting its very tenets of law and order.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:37pm PT
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My point was that our legal system would probably not ban a garment like the french did. I think that banning the garment is a band-aid and doesnt address the problem which is the subjugation of women that is taking place.
They can ban whatever clothing they want- that won't fix peoples attitudes/mindsets/hearts.
That's probably true.
The problem is that we're fighting an a-symmetrical war. We have freedom laws which they wish to subjugate. They have stated time and time again that they wish to bring down our society and culture.
They have demonstrated their will in England, France, and Holland, among other places. The Muslim Brotherhood is behind the will in the U.S. using the name of C.A.I.R., the Coucil on Arab Islamic Relations. They are a fraud!
Every American respects ordinary Muslims, why the need for a pressure group to push it through schools?
Certain people have alterior motives. I see 'em, do you?
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Currently in San Diego
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Jan 26, 2010 - 11:41pm PT
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I see much.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:00am PT
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Each country has its own "pulse" with respect to degree of political correctness. Look at Switzerland. They out and out banned minorettes (towers on Islamic mosques). Apparently they do not worry about what is or is not politically correct when it comes to such matters. They felt justified in doing so and apparently they did not worry about what the rest of the world thought of it. Somehow, I can't quite see either of these moves flying in the US. We have a different culture here.
That's what I've been saying, Lois. The Europeans have woken up to this. They have allowed it to propagate through their society and just now they;re realizing it can't co-exist with their cultures. One has to die and one has to seek prominence. They can't co-exist.
What remains to be seen is how the U.S. will deal with this.
I hate to say it but Islam is killing itself. The extremists are killing it.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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And I thought the Islamists were the religious fascists. But no, its the French!
Fast forward a 100 years. China (or Brazil) rule the world. The new standard of proper covering for women is topless. So American Christian women in Brazil or China are forced by law to go topless. Clearly blouses are symbols of male oppression and must be eliminated. Idea kind of stings IMHO.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Currently in San Diego
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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Speaking of PC
I woke up this morning (afternoon, really) and heard my neighbor on the phone, describing in detail how to get annoying co-workers fired by claiming that you are offended by various things they have said.
I leaned out the window and asked him for his bosses number because I was offended that I had to hear about how to get ones co-worker fired. I am still wondering where he works...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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Why should the government tell people what kinds of clothes they can or cannot wear?
If you outlaw the hijabs, they won't be able to go outside. Nice... real good idea.
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apogee
climber
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:46am PT
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"The problem is that we're fighting an a-symmetrical war. We have freedom laws which they wish to subjugate."
Staying on the high road means staying on the high road when the going is good or muddy. Morals and guiding principles aren't hobbies that are to be abandoned when it becomes difficult to maintain them.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 27, 2010 - 12:52am PT
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LEB you said:
" If the wearing of these garbs are a health hazard - and arguably they are - then it IS within the purview of the government to pass regulations pertaining there to."
You need to provide references, if you are claiming health hazards. I know that if you go into a fire, you put a cloth over your face. I know that when Lawrence went to Arabia, he adopted the arabic dress....which covers the body....and one reason was it was cooler and much healthier.
So, if you are making claims, you have to prove your point.
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