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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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There is no worse place for urban bikers than LA. I've never come closer to death than I did trying to bike to work and back from West LA to Hollywood - an exercise for my body and lessening my carbon footprint I tried a few years ago, did not end well. Well, it ended with me being alive but with more neath death/injury experiences from evil drivers AND peds than anything else. People here HATE people on bikes. They're gunning for you.
Seriously, drivers here are evil. As well as pedestrians. They HATE people on bikes.
LA for biking is only good on weekend mornings or bike paths along the beach.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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I ride when I can, but bad drivers make me nervous. I have been hit on a bike (1990 in Tempe, uninsured driver and cost me $$$ because the cops and FD took me to the ER), I got a $47 ticket for rolling through a stop sign (on UofA campus, no moving traffic or pedestrians in 1,000 yards and the stop sign was on a seldom used street behind the stadium in 1992. It was also friday afternoon about 4 and it was a tucson city cop no UofA police!?).
On the flip side, I have seen 100 bad bike riders who hog the road, don't even try to stay right, and then get pissed at all drivers. All those folks have drivers licenses but they can't obey motor vehicle laws on their bikes?
If the ER doc had just killed the two guys on the bikes he would spend less time in prison. And sorry, but the one "victim" who said he is scarred should go spend 6 months in Afghanistan and get back to us.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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Raymond Chandler never rode a bike...
Can't put a helmet over a fedora any way.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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You'd like to think it's the people.
But it's just the density. The more people you crowd into one place, the higher the percentage of jerks - because it's just annoying to be blocked from doing whatever you're doing by lots of people.
But I definitely agree on the bike trails - sweet! About 10 days ago my brother and I got a night ride out of Military reserve and ended up on the new Fat Tire traverse to Sidewinder near midnight in a snowstorm (with snow on that traverse). Pretty cool!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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rjox, isn't everything better in Idaho? isn't that why so many people jones living there? Not just the white Supremicists? So much so that they have elected you as the sole promoter?
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TC
Trad climber
Claremont, CA
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Jan 10, 2010 - 01:53am PT
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Is it a myth that bike riders in Europe enjoy more freedom of the road than US bike riders?
TC
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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Jan 10, 2010 - 01:59am PT
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LEB.....it's not the lack of jobs that keep people from living in pennsyltcuky....it's the rabbits....!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jan 10, 2010 - 02:14am PT
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It's my brother that lives in Boise, so we only visit now and then...and when we're there we might be at City of Rocks or Ketchum, etc.
Bogus is pretty fun, we were there on New year's for the powder dump (I call it powder since Sierra cement is what I grew up with...). It does have an awful lot of brush in places you don't expect (like in the tight trees). But it's a worthy area and only 45 minutes from town (assuming snow and ice on the road - quicker if the road is dry).
The Fat Tire Traverse is the narrow new one (trail 42), my brother had never seen it before and it looked new (and one of the signs down low said "planned to open summer 2009" or something). Definitely some pucker factor taking that at night, on snow, with snow in your eyes (I didn't have clear glasses or goggles - idiot). I figure there were no cliffs below, so how hurt could you really get?
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aguacaliente
climber
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Jan 10, 2010 - 02:26am PT
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LEB, to answer your question about trying to give OK signals to a following car to let them know they can pass soon, it is not easy to give unambiguous signals to a car. There are only about two signals (beyond the usual left/right turn signals) you can give:
left hand out, palm back, waving = Don't pass me!!! (This is kinda like the stop signal but more frantic. I use this when there is oncoming traffic, blind curves or other scary situations)
left hand waving forward = Go ahead and pass
Anything more complicated and you risk confusion which is a bad idea with 3000 pounds of metal behind you on a two lane road.
I drive and it always makes me antsy to be behind slow traffic even though the actual time I lose in seconds is minuscule. I think it's just the nature of driving, it appeals to worse parts of our nature. People forget that cars are dangerous machinery, even deadly weapons. I have been buzzed and even chased by cars (despite the fact that I never cuss at drivers anymore - I just yell "Hey" really loud to try to get their attention). I think most people who buzz or cut off cyclists would not dream of pointing guns at their fellow men, but they are both threats with potentially lethal devices. Driving makes us aggressive. It is unfortunate. We just have to recognize this and consciously try to calm it. Maybe we need driving schools that are taught by meditative Supertopo Buddhists.
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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Jan 10, 2010 - 02:37am PT
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Rockjox.....it's the so cal people that are the rude dangerous ass-bites...they begin invading this town on thursday night....at night you can see a long line of headlights heading into town to ski and go ape-sh#t....they won't stop for pedestrians even when the obnoxious yellow crosswalk lights are flashing..... they drive in tight dangerous packs on the highway jockeying for position , bumper to bumper inspite of miles of open highway.....if you are only going 65 they flash their lights, tailgate , pass and then cut you off to show their disapproval.....they drive the same way on snow and ice , thinking that their 50 thousand dollar , 4-wheel drive suv's will save their asses....it has gotten to the point where now when the roads get dicey during a snowstorm the CHP will shut the highway down and escort the wreckless morons.....the CHP does this because the tourist are driving too fast on the icy roads and end up crashing which then creates an impass on the highway....the escort caravans are pretty scary as the tourists try to escape the mts. like rats leaving a sinking ship....is it any wonder that cyclist in southern cal receive poor treatment from the motorists....?
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Jan 10, 2010 - 02:51am PT
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There is a story here - I was a bicycle courier for ENA in Seattle for 2 years in the 90's. 1000 miles a month was the average, and not very friendly.
The Seattle Chill makes people mean and crazy downtown, and oil slicked streets, aggro drivers and every kind of rain, sleet and snow you can imagine pervaded our daily concrete grind. On ice, for example, a courier could reduce the air pressure to 15 - 18 with knobbies, and roll right by the slip-sliding masses out for Xmas shopping.
A roomate, Tim was a cat. He told me about a trick on how to take any bad fall, and do three rolls and stand out of it. Crazy talk, but I listened anyway.
The theory according to Tim is, if one takes the energy of , oh, being broadsided by a car - and finds oneself flying through the air in an undignified manner, leading to any number of potential injuries - here's the trick.
One merely physically , and instantaneously, judges the "throw-force" of the impact, and once that is accomplished, simply EXCEEDS that force (even by just a little), with a spin-rotation force from your own burst of energy.
In other words, as you are hurtling through the air, drop your forward shoulder and spin harder than that force of the impact. This allows one to take the energy of the fall into the center of your physical being, and consequently a spin axis so centered after that, you take 3 rolls and stand up.
The sh#t really works, I am here to tell you.
Peace and cadence, Erik
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jan 10, 2010 - 02:54am PT
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Back on the urban bike rant - I think a lot of Euro riders get more respect for several reasons - the simplest being that a lot of the roads are super freaking narrow to begin with, so you really can't pass a bike on a mountain road. People don't drive nearly as far to get places, the roads are often slower to begin with, there is a lot of public transit and bike and pedestrian use all the time - so, generally speaking, a car driver in Europe feels like one of the user groups on the road systems, while in the US anything except a car is an oddity.
In Portland (Oregon) in the early '90s I would make eye contact with folks and STILL get cut off - especially older people in old cars. It's like it didn't even register - or they thought that a bike must be going 10mph or less, not 25.
Rokjox - Next time I get up that way when the trails are clear, I'll give you a shout. I've done a bunch of rides with my brother, we'd ride from his place (near the freeway and broadway) to the ridge (or the base of Bogus), then back various trails. I don't know most of the trail names, but I've probably done more of the long ones than the close-to-town stuff. Haven't done any of the trails above the base of Bogus though.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jan 10, 2010 - 03:08am PT
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Rox, Idaho is supposed to be a secret ! Please, stop promoting our fair state. Idaho has doubled in population in a very few years, (and it's all your fault!) :-)
Wilderness, great outdoor opportunities, relatively inexpensive property and living costs, moountains to climb, wolves to pet and Mormons to point fingers at. Yes, it's all here, but let's kinda keep it in the family.
Sun Valley is already infested with Hollywood and corporate X America types........ and bringing leash laws, bioflavonid boutiques, high prices and stiff necked, nose in the air types.
We need to emphasize our subzero weather, Neo-Nazis, lack of jobs, wood ticks, unlawful searches by Danite militias, not to mention convenience store apples going at three dollars each........ God's country? Not in the least !
Jaybro, the key to safe biking is......don't let the motorists know you're having fun.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jan 10, 2010 - 03:09am PT
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Ed Hartouni asks if anyone has ever ridden on Highway 120 through Yosemite.
I ride all the major Sierra mountain roads, 120, 108, 4, 88, 49, even Highway 80 in some spots on my road bike doing multi-day tours. I wouldn't advise 120 in mid-summer with all the tourist traffic, but early summer and late fall are not a problem. You can hit 60+mph on the descent off of Tioga Pass towards Lee Vinning. Just be careful of rocks on the road.
Hiway 108, 4, 49 and 88 are fine spring, summer and fall.
And, yes, Old Priest Grade is a very difficult climb. The steepest sustained section(20%) comes right at the top. Ouch.
Bruce
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jan 10, 2010 - 03:16am PT
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Idaho has one very cool law for cyclists. If there is no traffic at an intersection, bike riders are allowed to treat stop lights as stop sign and stop signs as yield signs.
On a different topic, the double yellow line on the roadway is pretty lame. You don't see double yellow lines in the mountain, or other places for that matter, in Europe because they trust the car drivers to be able to use their own judgement on where it is safe to pass.
In the US, car drivers treat the double yellow line as some sort of 'line of death' and will not pass a cyclists for fear of being ticketed. Luckily for Colorado, in the 'Cyclists Bill of Rights' which went into law in July of 2009, not only did it specifically spell out many of the legal differences between operating a car and a bicycle on the roadway (riding two-abreast in one lane, safe distance to pass, etc.), but it also made it legal for cars to cross the double yellow line to pass cyclists.
Bruce
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 10, 2010 - 07:16am PT
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PDX is billed as the big bike town, but the dark underbelly no one talks much about is how many folks get both hit each year. We know lots of folks who've been hit and suffered everything from slight bruises to brain injuries to death. It's still a dangerous activity even in 'bike friendly' Portland.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
You wanted to!
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Jan 10, 2010 - 09:02am PT
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Downhill bleeders. Sheesh!
Ah, well. Different goals, different methods.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jan 10, 2010 - 11:29am PT
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Roxjox,
I will expect a nice long bike tour when I visit my cousins in Boise next summer.
Cheers
MT
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olivier
Social climber
Hood River, OR
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Jan 10, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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TC asked if it is a myth that roads are better in Europe.
While I can't speak to riding outside of France, there are a few differences that come to mind:
1. an incredible number of roads. There are amazing roads to choose from, and rarely do
you need to get on one that might rattle your nerves. Some of the mountain roads are like
singletrack for road bikes, and your biggest risk is running into livestock.
2. The main arteries are car-only, and well designed. That is, most through-drivers are on them.
3. There is a much higher level of respect for cyclists. Everybody rides a bike, and mostly for
daily errands / commuting. Drivers tend to see bikes.
Even Paris is surprisingly manageable for a cyclist, but that doesn't mean you can let down your guard! In general though I don't think it is a myth that things are better over there, it is only a question of how much better...
IMO, the US lack of a bike-specific set of rules creates a chaotic situation of cyclists vs. motorists. I would personally prefer to see a more restrictive set of rules for cyclists, in
exchange for some protections and rights of our own, like the "Stop as Yield" they have in
Idaho I think.
A city like Portland is "bike friendly" because it is relatively flat and the municipality does so much to facilitate and encourage bike riding. That doesn't mean it is safe, per se. And the number of accidents has much to do with the number of cyclists on the roads.
The best way to get around Portland is to weave in and out of back streets on routes where cars could simply not follow. In Berkeley you find similar "obstacles" where cars cannot pass. These are safe bike routes, but they are not "Fast" bike routes. To go fast you need to hop onto Shattuck and go with the flow, but then you take your life in your hands.
O
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jan 10, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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For me, predictability is a key component of safety. And on my daily commute, I find cyclists much more unpredictable and dangerous than motorists.
Cyclists are much more likely to blow through stop signs without slowing than motorists.
Cyclists move from the sidewalk to the road and back in a random manner.
Cyclists will turn left from the right side of the road at intersections.
Cyclists pass on the right even if the vehicle has his right turn signal on (this one boggles my mind).
Too many cyclists bike as if they are kids in the park, not road users sharing the public space.
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