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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 16, 2011 - 08:59am PT
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Steve, I have a different take. The Post War (WW2) years were difficult in England. When I went there in the early 70's unemployment was rampant and there was an almost nihilistic attitude within the climbing community. Most climbers were living on the dole and a "damn tomorrow," self destructive life style was in full swing. Prominence was achieved by being able to climb hard with a massive hangover. Whillans could certainly hold his own in that regard.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jul 16, 2011 - 09:38am PT
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I am a sick man and own:
The Black Cliff
Welsh Rock
Cumbrian Rock
along with Rope Boy and have since loaned out my copy of Tight Rope! (one of the best books on British Climbing)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
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Scan a few favorite passages...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 16, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
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Thanks, Steve! Quite a lot of "Welsh Rock" naturally paralleled or paraphrased what was in The Black Cliff, of which I have a copy, sans dust jacket. There's a few new stories and photos, but not a lot of surprises.
Jim Perrin's book "The Villain" has quite a lot about the sociology of the Rock and Ice members. Most seem to have been a step or two above 'real' working class, although to us North Americans the distinctions are rather fine.
I climbed in England and Wales in 1976 and 1980, and like everyone osmotically absorbed each issue of Mountain as it appeared. And of course got to know some British climbers, both there, in Yosemite, and as a few started to become active in Squamish in the later 1970s. To outsiders, the British social system is a bit opaque. Still, the years after the war when the Rock and Ice got their start were the rationing years, the time of the collapse of their empire, and of the first real Labour government. The war had a lot to do with making Britain a bit more egalitarian, and giving people like the R & I a chance.
A lot of the hard-drinking, on the dole climbers were anything but working class, and many were indeed educated. It was a bit like Camp 4 in the 1970s - lots of climbers came through and for a while adopted the dirtbag lifestyle, but most eventually went home to school, jobs, families, etc. Not quite an act, but neither for most was it a lifestyle.
It was unfortunate the parts of Britain with the better climbing were also those with some of weakest economies in the 1970s, e.g. north Wales and the Peak District. The country had serious problems, solved either by Margaret Thatcher (if you like fantasy and ideology) or oil and gas revenue as it came onstream (the reality). But most British climbers, even in the 1970s, were ordinary middle class young people, certainly with significant other elements, but less than we might like to believe.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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Jim- I hear what you are saying along the lines of lethal habits and mentality but wouldn't the greater shame have been having a whole lot less fun and then dying at the same age...The Elysian Fields isn't Where Whillans Went!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2011 - 12:27am PT
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First I've heard of the Alpha Club!
Thanks for the links.
I am well into The Villain right now and have a bad case of the Gritstone jones!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 19, 2011 - 12:36am PT
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Is there any gritstone-like rock in the US? That is, really hard sandstone, as in the Peak?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
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I have heard of "gritstone" in the US but we would have heard a lot more if it held a candle to the celebrated british variety.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 19, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
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MH, some of the sandstone crags along the Appalachians and adjacent ridges are quite hard. Seneca, New River, and the Gunks are examples of some of these sandstones. Near Gettysburg, Pennsylvania are some crags that seem to have even harder sandstone than the other areas.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 19, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
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When does sandstone make the transition to being quartzite, or other minerals? Paging Minerals!
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 19, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
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I think some degree of metamorphic pressure would be the difference.
I have heard Devils Lake in Wisconsin is a quartzite.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 21, 2011 - 11:16am PT
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The main crags at Devil's Lake are definitely quartzite--no mistaking that square-cut, incredibly slick stone for sandstone---though there are a few sandstone buttresses on the "fringes". At Rock Springs on the other end of the Baraboo Hills (the range that includes Devil's Lake)there is a very clear contact zone where the quartzite overlays the sandstone so that some routes (if the place is still accessible for climbing) start with a few moves on frictiony, rounded sandstone before changing, in the space of a move, to slippery, sharp-edged quartzite. As far as the "is there gritstone in the US" question, it is a hard one to answer since there is even variation in the nature of the rock between some of the various gritstone crags in the UK. Basically grit is a rough-textured, very dense form of sandstone often with large "pebbles" embedded in the matrix. It is quite different from the sandstone in places like the 4 Corners, Eldo (though the latter is a dense sandstone with protrusions), the New, the Red, etc. The stone in some of the Tennessee and Alabama crags is closer but still not quite the same. The closest I've climbed on in the US is in places such as northwestern W. Va. (Coopers Rocks---the rock near Gettysburg is probably pretty much the same) and southern Ill. (Jackson Falls)--though friends from the UK still say, "not grit"!!!!!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 11:21am PT
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Its funny about climbing in Britian, and Wales in general. I've been over to England about 15 trips on business, and on the weekend I try to dash out to Wales and Snowdonia to go climbing at Cloggy and surrounding. Of all those trips, there was 1 weekend, just one, where it was climbable. It was either raining, or had been raining and everything was still wet and slick. Kudos to the Brits for their persistence, its like living in Oregon!
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duncan
climber
London, UK
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
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The Post War (WW2) years were difficult in England. When I went there in the early 70's unemployment was rampant and there was an almost nihilistic attitude within the climbing community. Most climbers were living on the dole and a "damn tomorrow," self destructive life style was in full swing.
The same could be said of the 1980s Thatcher years - see Johnny Dawes' wonderful "Full of Myself" - or ask any of the expat. Brits still living in Boulder who were refugees from that era. No surprise that this was the last time UK climbing had any serious pretensions by international standards. No surprise either that with youth unemployment at 46%, Spain is currently the world centre for hard rockclimbing.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Nov 23, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
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Back in the 50s I climbed with a British climber who told me the only place he had found gritstone in the US was somewhere up around Duluth or International Falls. Never went there myself.
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CaNewt
Mountain climber
Davis, CA
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Nov 24, 2011 - 12:46am PT
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I was fortunate enough to climb a few times with Don. We met in 1976 on a British and one American expedition to Denali. The "A" team did the an alpine ascent ot the Cassin Ridge while four of us did the West Rib alpine style (It was still a bit of a novelty then.)
I remember Don quizing one of our party at Kahiltna International as we packet for a trudge up the glacier. "Are you taking an extra sweater?" When the reply was "Yes" Don pulled a sweater our of his pack and tossed it aside with the statement, "Guess I don't need this then"
We began that trudge with us on skis and Don walking with the comment,"Naught going faster than I can go with my own two feet!" Perhaps that was precient as we lost John Howard skiing into a crevasse on the Columbia Icefield many years later.
Don had a great sense of the mountains, of course. I really learned to appreciate his assessment of what a safe campsite was (and, here I was just trying to find the best view.)
Some will remember an earlier post on here how at the end of that trip we all wandered straight in to the Fairview Inn and ended up all being arrested the next day. I need to tell story some day.
I also got to climb Mt Aspiring in New Zealand with Don and my wife Anne Schneider. Nice trip to the hut and then up to the summit. But, a big storm moved in as we started back to the valley, not untypical in NZ. Dry walls were now curtains of water. We climbed down what has been an easy hike up a bit gripped with gallons of water running down my sleeves through my pants and into my boots.
We had to cross a stream to the warmth and safety of Geoff Wayatt's hut. I was cold and a bit stumped, this stream was a now a raging river. Don really did lead the way. Impressive. A hard man and a survivor.
This trip epitomized for me another of my favorite Whillans quotes,"Don't mind fighting my way out of it, but can't see fighting my way into it."
Anne and I connected with Don once more in Wales and the Lakes to do a few routes. Clearly a bit heavy, but still what a power and a joy to watch. Drinking beer with Don after a day on the rocks is a special memory
Lots of stories of Don's punch ups and such. Perhaps, I was a bit fortunate to know him when he had mellowed just a we bit.
How many remember when he spoke to the Sierra Nevada section annual dinner at the Brazilian Room in Tilden park above Berkeley when we were just restarting them?
Steve, thanks for this thread. Brings back great memories.
Cheers,
CA Newt
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Nov 24, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
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I had a nice conversation with Joe Brown several years ago. He lamented the fact that Don had done himself in with his lifestyle - Brown had tried to get him to change. I first heard of Joe back in the mid 1950s and have had a great respect for him ever since.In our conversation he seemed a charming, intelligent fellow.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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CA Newt- Stories like yours are the reason that I put time into posting historical material so thank you!
Tom Frost told me a telling tale from the 1970 Annapurna South Face trip. Don had forgotten his Swiss army knife and made that known to the rest of the team. Oddly, his mates simply resigned themselves to the reality that he was going to pinch one of theirs and that was that. It simply wasn't worth crossing him over it.
I dearly hope that I get the opportunity to sit down with and interview Joe Brown in the near future. Hopefully, The Frost book will give me an reason to attend the Kendall festival and seek him out.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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Bump for Paul Ross who got his start around these estimable gents and is still going strong!
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