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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
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@ray Olson those posts are great and so is the thread. My friend told me some stories about turning down Warrens advances on some over night on a ledge... when she was sixteen. What a rock star
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Warren was a rock star and perhaps the greatest character I've ever met.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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I met Warren in 1969 and had the good fortune to be around Camp 4 when he was, so I got to know him pretty well. He was my hero as were Pratt and the other guys. But Warren had a fire that they lacked. He was funny as can be and was not on the snobby side like some of the "Valley Elite". You must remember that many of his routes were done before the improvement in gear. When the Nose was climbed for the second time the guys had a full, modern pin rack that was not available when Harding did many of his climbs... so you may scoff at seeing a bolt next to some hairline or wide crack on some of his routes but he did what he had to do with the available equipment. Robbins and Frost both said that Harding climbed the Nose in the only manner that it could be climbed AT THAT TIME.
I think it interesting that some said he should have given way to others who could climb in a "better style"... he would always laugh about that one!! Imagine seeing a line like the Nose and thinking... oh I think I should wait until equipment has advanced enough so I can climb it in better style!!! Hell, he invented big wall climbing, not Chongo!! Sure the boys climbed the Reg on the Dome earlier but that style of climbing was not big wall climbing, as we have come to know it, for it took Harding and his persistance to figure out how to live up there for so long.
He was a great man in many respects and I counted him as a friend.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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The late T. Burke and I partied with Warren and some of his lady friends in the tubs above the Ahwahnee after climbing Serenity and Maxine's. It was a clothing optional affair. I think Strappo may have been there as well. What a great guy to hang out with. A true icon.
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jstan
climber
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Harding prolly had normal size testicles ( anybody ?! )
OK! That's it. Time to ban Tami.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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Really important post, Warbler. Critical to getting understanding what the hell happened to him in the last part of his life and his funny but bizarre Blackface theater that sprang up. Basically the guy had been bullied and abused, his native feet finally dragged to the abstract fire of an uncomprehending and socially very different power elite of the time. I think this was american rockclimbing's worst hour. Everything would have worked out so much better if there had not been an erasure of a third of his greatest route, the one with which he would conclude his most serious climbing.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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If you knew anything about Warren, he was
very different under the influence than not. His ideas,
his sense of the world, often radically conflicted from one
realm to the other. When I want to get "centered," let's say, I always
hearken back to Pratt's article on Watkins, where Chuck gives Warren
his every due and more. I think Chuck really knew the best Warren,
the part we know on some deeper level.
Many individuals, I think, have a great side
and various other sides. Warren flaunted his bizarre
sides. In the last years he added a mean side, as Charlie Fowler
noted, perhaps as a result of a switch from wine to the harder stuff.
The side I remember is the completely inexplicable side,
call it that. He and I had a wonderful conversation
one evening in Camp 4, circa 1965-6 in which he
joked that I was like him, one of the worst people in the Sierra, and
we were a readymade team. We made plans to do a new route on El Cap,
and I was ready and began to plan all aspects of that. In the morning,
he had no memory of talking with me. I was not angry, just...
amused. I didn't try to have the conversation with him sober. That
just didn't seem right.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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The only thing I have read about the chopping of Harding's route was in a Climbing magazine article about the century's best climbs and climbers. Harding had been profiled recently so they didn't profile him again but they did profile Royal Robbins. In the article Robbins says they chopped the route about halfway and then stopped realizing that there was no other protection and the route was high quality and in fact was NOT overbolted. They said in the article that Harding and about 20 others met them at the top with champagne/wine and a big party ensued. I never got the impression from the article that there was much bad blood between the two. Obviously there was.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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There is always more to every story, and the climbing mags,
with all due respect, rarely get it right.
Royal, my good friend, was kind of on a mission to play policeman
and oversee the bolting scene. I think he meant well, wanted to
preserve the high standard he, Frost, and others set on various routes,
in terms of numbers of bolts. I know he feared Harding's route
was going to have far too many bolts and so decided to make a
statement. Not only was it a huge amount of work to remove those bolts,
but yes I think he began to realize the route had a reasonable
amount of them. Royal definitely was conflicted, wondered if he
should be dictating the terms of someone else's ascent. So he
quit chopping and just did the climb. I think Lauria could add
so much here about that climb. Royal had put people in their places,
as it were, before, and it really never did end well. He and Harding
had a great deal of respect for one another, as leaders of two
different generations. Harding's ribald approach to life was at
once endearing and funny yet on another level a kind of affront to
the serene mentality of Robbins and Frost and the standards just by
example they seemed to impose upon the climbing world... Royal
and Warren had a very peculiar relationship. The two were
friends, for the most part, and had a lot of respect for one another,
but Royal could get under almost anyone's nerves at times with his
"self-righteous" approach, and Warren did not pay anyone or anything
any particular respect. I think through the years Royal mellowed
and grew to appreciate Harding more the way Chuck did. While Warren
acknowledged Royal's greatness and got along with him he always
had a sore spot for the things Royal did to demean him.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Having fun with Harding 1962.
Guido, Warren and Mort the musician.
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Nick
climber
portland, Oregon
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Not much of a story really. As a seventeen year old, underage youngster I got kicked out of the mountain room bar one night in 76'. As slouched out of the center of the valley party world, an older guy in a big greasy down jacket who was slouched against one of the poles asked me if I got kicked out and did I want a drink? I spent a very memorable night drinking with Warren and the next morning with my head pounding I could hardly remember a thing we talked about.
I few years ago I happened to catch a slide show Dean Caldwell did on the Wall of the Early Morning Light. It was really great to see all those photos of Warren and Dean in their heyday.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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During the last days of Warren's life, Royal went up and stayed with Warren for some time, and I would dearly love to learn what they did and did not speak about. I have SO been hoping that Royal, if he can't finish all his projected volumes of his autobiography, would tell the world how their relationship was at the end. Surely, the narrative would be one-sided, but that is one more side than we, who knew them and their deeds, have to go on now.
That said, it would also be lovely to see that Royal could move with his climbing achievements into a more human and humane way of seeing the world. Who is Royal on the deeper levels inside? Does he even go there? Can he write as eloquently about his inner world and his relationships as he has done about his outer one?
Perhaps someone else was there who could tell us what transpired during Royal and Warren's last meeting(s). Anyone know of someone who was present during that time?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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Terrific question, Ken. And again, Warbler, great points indeed.
If anyone was there, it was probably the last gal friend. What a good question and how awfully poignant. One can try to imagine the situation as Warren passes, Royal bedside....
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aw, this is all breaking my heart.
Really gonna ban Tami?
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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I find this conversation about Robins and Harding especially compelling. Each of you has a true reading of Harding as you remembered him.
He was a very complex personality, depending on what year and what state of inebriation he was in at the time you were talking to him.
I touched on this in my post of (A few notes on the life of Warren Harding).
When sober Warren Harding definitely respected Royal as a climber, more than that he envied his success as a family man and as a businessman. I heard this directly from Warren late and 1971, at that time he was depressed about his own fate in terms of his history as a climber in Yosemite.
He felt that the flap over the Wall of Early Morning Light climb had ruined his reputation as a climber.
I personally see this as his last great climbing achievement. I also recognize that when he made this climb he was in the worst physical shape of his life, due to the accident the year before which broke his leg and shattered his right knee. He was in pain for the rest of his life due to this accident. His friend and climbing partner Galen Rowell and was sure that Warren would never be able to climb again after he saw the damage to his leg.
Eight months later Galen saw Warren going up the mist trail with a huge pack. He commented at the time that, Warren with only one good leg was stronger than most men with two good legs. They finished the SF of Half Dome climb two months later.
When Warren topped out of WEML he felt he had overcome everything, his age, his physical infirmity and yes his dependent's on alcohol. That is why he celebrated this achievement more than any other.
In light of this, it is easy to understand how devastated Warren was when Royal decided to erase his route.
I understand Warren was in Chicago doing an interview when he heard about what Royal had done. In characteristic Harding aplomb, he shrugged off the news as if it did not bother him.
If it had stopped there the damage might have been forgotten, however the controversy was front page for the rest of 1971. It appeared to Warren that all of the climbers, except a few of his best friends were against him.
It was said that he was too old, too out of date and had placed too many bolts on a climb that should not have been made. It is only with hindsight we now judge him with less critical eyes. You had to be there to understand how much he was criticized and how he interpreted this criticism. Warren could not comprehend what it happened to him.
The good news is that indeed both Royal and Harding did mellow as the years went by, in the late 70s Warren was actually giving climbing talks at Royals place.
Did Harding truly forgive and forget, I suspect that he was sober he was able to put on a good face. However after 1971, 72 Warren was inebriated much of the time, so many stories have appeared that suggest that he held a lot of resentment towards Royal for his erasing the route.
Alice was Warren Harding's last companion told me that Warren was in and out of consciousness when he was visited by Royal and his friends. It is not likely that any meaningful conversation took place. It is my understanding that Royal was not sure that Harding was aware of his being there at the end with him.
Sorry for being so long-winded, but I wanted to connect some of the dots in this intriguing story.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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mountainlion,
The only thing I have read about the chopping of Harding's route was in a Climbing magazine article .... In the article Robbins says they chopped the route about halfway
This is not an accurate description of what happened. They chopped just a couple of pitches.
There is a lot of info on the climb and chopping in Rowell's The Vertical World of Yosemite.
Or take a look at the Hockey Night topo. The original Dawn Wall joins it at (4) and the rivet ladder on p7 is original Dawn.
The original Dawn Wall route itself is kinda sad, because there are a lot of rivets and a few years later Mescalito crossed it with a lot fewer rivets.
But part of it was bad luck. It has a long rivet traverse to "The Dihedrals", which turned out to be blank. So he had to drill rivets up those as well....
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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Thanks Rat. That answers the big poignant question what kind of interaction actually took place bedside. It is significant to note that some of Royal's early life was spent abused by a father and drunk stepfather. In short it had been tough. I think Royal in his later life has developed increased coping skills with people, probably has been finally thrilled to find he can bridge this archetypal gap he has carried in himself as a wound for so long. And of course the brotherhood of the rope can achieve many good things.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Park Rat, that photo of Harding with the B.A.T. T-shirt is the same sight I saw when I ran into Harding in the Lodge parking lot that one day. Funny, it was winter and snowing - yet there he was in a T-shirt.
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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Thank you for your comment Peter. I sometimes worry that because I'm not a climber, I do not belong in the conversation. Then I stop and remind myself that he spent two years chatting with Warren.
It's only because I've spent the last few years reading and asking many questions about Warren that I'm able to fill in the gaps in his often quirky behavior.
I feel that I was lucky to know the Harding who was so friendly and happy go lucky, before the criticism of 1971 started to weigh him down.
I was not drawn to Harding because of his exploits as a climber, and certainly not by his personal appearance at the time. He was a head shorter, much older always rumpled and often less than well groomed.
What drew me to him was his incredible ability to charm you off your feet in a matter of seconds, he was brimming with enthusiasm wanted to know what I was doing and could he do anything to help me. Such as loaning me camping equipment for two years. I often ask myself why he bothered being so interested in me as I was not his girlfriend or in his circle of friends. The answer seems to be that he truly enjoyed people who were not climbers and did not care that I did not know one end of a rope from another.
The picture of Royal and Harding was taken at a trade show probably in the late 70s.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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Rat, you are very much part of the treasures of Valley climbing. Please no deference. Your probing into Warren's story is very valuable and as a non climber it provides additional perspective.
Absolutely right Warbler, on all of that. I remember sitting at Royal and Liz's dinner table in the winter of 1971 just after RR and Lauria had pulled their caper. RR was having a hard time placing their act and the actual experience into what he thought or hoped would be its final perspective. He was obviously embarrassed about the aborted erasure aspect of their climb and already was admitting there was now a new problem from what they had done. At the same time there was this worrisome issue no one could fix of the huge-ass publicity monster that had been unleashed upon us all as you mention Kevin and also what at the time seemed like Warren and Dean's grotesque conduct up the wall, at least in comparison to how ascents by that point in time were being done. The eleven year difference in RR and Warren's ages also put into play psychological content that might not have been there for Royal if they had been contemporaries. Although these two men had very different miens and tastes, their backgrounds intermingled in some upsetting ways that triggered difficult emotions for them both.
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